WIKIPEDIA

It seems that Steve Coleman wrote on 18 August 2006 in WIKIPEDIA the following text:

“Actually I know Anku and I've talked to him extensively about his notation ideas. Its more than notation though. What Willie is trying to figure out is a form through which the rhythmic concepts can be understood. I could update this page a lot but I seem not to have the Wiki skills together in order to make a proper edit. However I could do it in collaboration with someone else who is more familiar with the Wikipedia format. I don't have this problems on my own web site - hahaha. Aside from any kind of ego massaging the most accurate information could probably be provided by the artist themselves, but again It would be helpful to work with someone else. By the way, for many years now, if you are not doing mainstream music Europe has been the place that has supported almost all of the artists I know (at least in my circle). The comparison of the support we recive in Europe vesus the USA is not even close. This is not so much due to the people but the exposure of the music, the US is mainly concerned with commercialism and what we do here is basically underground. But I for one do not want to move to Europe as many have done because as Ferdinand has said, because of the sheer size of the country there are still many creative and excellent musicians in the US, especially around NY, and that is the main reason for staying. Steve Coleman”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Steve_Coleman

If help is still requested we shout do it (I think). I wrote an article in German Wikipedia (about Steve Coleman). So I know a bit how to make an edit. Maybe someone here is able to do it better. And my English is bad. If there is nobody except me for that: I would make an effort to do it.

My suggestion: If you (Steve Coleman) put down here the text you want I (we) will do the rest.

Manfred

Manfred,
that's a good idea. May be you should post this question to Steve under question to the musicians forum below.
CM

Joined : 11 Sep 2006 Posts : 137

Manfred,

I don't know what you're talking about. Smile

You've written some amazing words here at the forum. It may take you a while, but never think that you aren't good enough. You're doin' just fine pal!

Scott

Thank you Charles for this good idea!

Thank you Scott for bolstering me.

Nice to be together!

Manfred
Smile

The other thing I thought about when reading this wiki post from (may be) Steve, is related to European supporting the music.

It's amazing that this has been the case for a very long time. I remember reading something like that in Miles Davis's (pseudo?) autobiography by Quincy Troupe.

I think since BeBop this music has mostly interested and therefore been supported in majority by people from Europe and.... people from European descent.

Now if you remember our discussion about African sensibility somewhere else in this forum that begs the question: if indeed there is some african sensibility in that music how come that people from Africa as well as people from African descent particularly in the US seem to totally ignore it. I have been to many jazz concerts and I often caught myself wondering how come there are so few blacks in the audience. I think the concert where I saw the most black people may have been Wynton Marsalis for "Blood on the Field" ( that's where Cassandra Wilson voice just blew me out. Hearing it live is something I will always remember).

I came to the conclusion recently that there is no Truth in culture itself.

When I made the comment about Manu Dibango elsewhere in this forum it was not out of pride, some sort of African pride, more than it was to claim my individuality ("mon individualite"), and not to be assimilated to a non-thinking-taping-feet-entity for sole fact that I belong to a given ethnic group (or rather I was born in the midst of a certain ethnic group).

Yeah, I think I understand what you have said, Charles! That’s very interesting for me.

In a German Forum I often try to explain: Supporting Jazz is the most important European contribution to Jazz – not to play Jazz by oneself (because many tend to increase the importance of European musicians in Jazz). Dim is very important! Already the oldest video showing Louis Armstrong was made by Europeans (I guess: 1933 in Copenhagen). – A German author said: The Europeans recognized that Jazz is “great art”. I think that’s the way Europeans mostly got an appreciation for Jazz. But it also may be a bit problematic: In an interview I read that Steve Coleman has said that his music is not an “art” but a “craft” …

My mother kept house and my father worked in an office on a low level. We never had much money but enough and securely. My father had not to work hard. He had enough time and energy to be deeply involved in cultural things – reading, thinking and discussing about many different things: history, politics, philosophy, literature … I’m influenced by him. In my adolescence I felt that much of the European culture is rigid, hostile, crazy thinking, theorizing instead of feeling, megalomania, without intelligence in feeling … I found a counterpoise in Brazilian music – first in Bossa Nova later in the heavier Afro-Brazilian music etc. … So I came to Jazz. I grew up in the Sixties with all those ideas of a better world which were discussed in those days. In the meantime the roll back which Ronald Reagan seems to have started also came to Europe and the dreams passed by. One thing has remained: animating music.

My wife grew up in the country. Her parents worked hard to buy a farm. Nobody of them would sit down to do such a “useless” thing like listening to a complicated music. (But they could make (folk) music quite well.)

I think: A certain background is necessary to like Jazz. I imagine that in the USA most people of Afro-decent are just in another situation.

I remember that we (you and I) talked once about the pygmies and György Ligeti. You like Ligeti but for me he is too much European. Ligeti was fascinated by the music of the pygmies. This I can understand quite well. – So maybe our appreciations are crossing! Smile

I try to understand what is called the “African sensibility”. Recently I wrote a post in the German Forum to show how I understand it. I try to reproduce it here. Maybe you or someone else has an idea if my view is right or wrong:

“On the following side there is a video entitled „Steve Smith & Marvin ‚Smitty’ Smith – Drum Battle“:
http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Marvin_Smith.html
Smith begins and then once notices immediately that Smitty is the much better drummer … but this is not my issue here. I want to speak about the KIND of playing: Smitty’s playing is easy, organic, lissome, smart, though the rhythm is tight it can blossom out.
Smith’s playing is however rather rigid, he knocks, knuckles, and stuffs the rhythm so that it stands like a full bag.

Dave Weckl:
http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Dave_Weckl.html
Of course his playing is virtuosic … in the kind of “knocking”.
In contrast another drummer as an example of the other kind (in a completely other style):
http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Jeff_Tain_Watts.html

Elvin Jones played with a huge impact but very fluently, organically, like breathing … elegant like a panther in action:
http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Elvin_Jones.html

In a similar KIND Jack DeJohnette:
http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/Jackdejohnettekeith3.html
On this video I see also Keith Jarrett: Of course he plays very well, though I’m embarrassed about his twisting … I regard it as a kind of “knuckling” the tones. I see a lack of good body feeling, a lack of balance which produces lissomeness, of breathing deeply, of flow.

A counter-example: Again the video with Elvin Jones:
http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Elvin_Jones.html
Firstly I see a piano-player (unknown to me): He doesn’t “knuckle”, he dances. He plays with a freewheeling though intense body feeling. So I hear swing and groove. Furthermore the sound is solid, bluesy, warm-blooded. In contrast Keith Jarrett has typical “classical” aesthetics, clear, accurate.

It’s a matter of taste what once prefers.

What are you thinking about these thoughts?

Joined : 20 Apr 2006 Posts : 57 Localisation : Rome

Sorry! I don't want to be unfriednly or intolerant! Of course he is really good. I think it is a question of taste. One said his bending is sexy ...
... not from my point of view but just for others ...

Neutral

Joined : 20 Apr 2006 Posts : 57 Localisation : Rome

Joined : 11 Sep 2006 Posts : 137

Manfred, you sure seem to know your drummers. Hats off to you! You gave off what I would consider a good read on these drummers mentioned.

Joined : 03 Apr 2006 Posts : 276 Localisation : Paris

Manfred,

After reading your post on drummer's video I feel very close to your opinion !
_________________
www.stevecolemanarchives.com

Joined : 11 Sep 2006 Posts : 137