Steve Coleman Archives Forum

Joined : 17 Aug 2007 Posts : 5

I agree that they all sound different, i like them all in the way they are...

Marvin Smith: a veteran.. he can play almost everything. he can clearly improvise very complex sentences in very tight transitions. He is outstanding in black science and dropkick. he is the mrknowitall!

Gene Lake: One thing comes to my mind. Groove. You can say marvin and sean are groovy too, but gene is different. he was born with it, one cannot learn practicing. his drumset is like a part of his grooving body Smile

.... he is not as complex and robust as sean and marvin yet has a natural gift. the sound of the drum set and the grooves on The Tao of Mad Phat simply amazing.

Sean rickman: He as infinite energy, everything splashing and booming Smile

. he likes to show himself. he can play very complex groovy rhythms yet his transitions are too much booming, like too much single strokes between snare and toms.. and he uses too much double bass drum on open solos.. but sure! he is amazing Smile

i love his drumming on Opening of the Way especially the song Pi...

Joined : 11 Sep 2006 Posts : 137

I completely agree with what you are saying about Marvin. However, when we say that Gene Lake is all about groove, my question to Steve was this: How would Marvin have handled those same music sets. Would Marvin have been able to groove in the same way that Gene was able to groove. But you're absolutely right. The groove drumming from Gene is amazing and I thoroughly enjoy how he is able to interpret this "living" set of music. Again, I'd love to hear how Marvin might be able to play within that same musical set. However, there are times when Gene seems to apparently get "lost" within the groove and at times even seems to not know where he's at within a couple tunes. "Flint" is one example. This is one of my favorice tunes, but I believe it should be noted that though he grooves in an amazing way, there is a moment or two where the drumming does not contain that certain level of confidence that Smitty possesses. In the end, however, we're splitting hairs with this kind of criticism, for as I said, this is one of my favorite Coleman tunes. Gene is phenominal, but its that couple of "hairs" that separates him from Smith.

I love how you say that Gene isn't as "robust", and I know that this is not a criticism, as it is more of a compliment in how is he able to smoothly interact appropriately, smoothly and tastily throughout a piece. I wonder how Dave Weckl would sound in these musical sets, if he were able (another question of mine). Gene has a smoothness and comforting attack, yet contains that level of comfort and confidence that is needed for the playing style of Coleman.

I like your assessment of Rickman. But again, I wonder how Lake and Smith would have interpreted these musical sets. What would the difference in playing be? It seems that the sound that Coleman is trying to achieve at these moments is much, much different in such recordings as Sine Die, Transmigration and Rhythm People. How would the likes of Sean and Gene play a role in those recordings? As Steve says, he has to create a music set defined by the talents of each musician....What a task that must me.

Great post Swunk!

Joined : 03 Apr 2006 Posts : 254 Localisation : Paris

I guess one ability to a musician is to "hide" the fact he is lost,(cause usually only the band members will notice the issue, the audience very often dont see/hear anything)

And when you are a drummer you cant stop playing so you have to "cheat" in some way.

Some will think it's a weak point but I rahter think it's a very nice feature for a musician.

So I guess Gene is a king at this ability !

Dim.

About Flint, it's true that there is somehting strange in the rythm part but I was thinkin it was more of an percussion issue rather than the drum.
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Very interesting!

I think, each drummer makes the band sound differently – always greatly! I mostly listen to the last recordings. So I very often hear Tyshawn Sorey. Never the band sounded better. I really like his playing.

Joined : 11 Sep 2006 Posts : 137

Dim, one of the things that makes Coleman so amazing is what we know of his through his own quotes. He says that when they create a tune, they may not even be aware of the time signature. This is amazing, as it means that they play much of their music based upon feel and intuition. Therefore, in a sense, none of them really know "where they" are throughout a song. This is just incredible to me, as when I play, I depend on musical intellect instead of musical intuition.

You're right. My former drum teacher taught that you are to never stop playing. Never! The hole that you would leave in the middle of the song would be devastating. I believe that it doesn't matter what instrument we play, we all make mistakes, but the good ones know how to not only recover from a mistake, but are able to build around a mistake and make it music.

Good post, Dim

Free

Joined : 20 Apr 2006 Posts : 57 Localisation : Rome

Massimo Urbani, one of the best saxophone players i ever known, many years ago, told me about improvisation that if you play a wrong note you have to play it again and again until you believe that is the right one. Once you believe it, the crowd believe it.

Joined : 17 Aug 2007 Posts : 5

Joined : 11 Sep 2006 Posts : 137

Swunk. Too funny. I was talking exactly about the 1:06 time mark of the tune. This kind of thing is just what we normally don't hear in Coleman's music, as he's such a perfectionist. But more than this, there are at least two or three instances where Gene goes from hi-hat to a ride cymbol at the wrong times (4:55 is one example). We know this because he only plays the ride cymbol for a few bars.

Sorry guys, I hate to write about these things in exact terms because I don't want you all to see the negatives. It hurts our listening experience if we are aware of them. But as I said, I think that Gene is so incredible that his playing on this tune is one of the main reasons for why I like this musical set. Gene is fricking incredible in Flint!

You're right, that groove in Jeanine's Sizzling is very polyrhythmic. But when it comes to polyrhythms, it doesn't get much better than Smitty at the beginning of X Format! What that man does with his limbs is just out of this world.

Swunk....if you have a sequencer, you can program each note of that passage in Jeannine's Sizzling to get it all figured out. That's what I did with X format and my programming sounded exactly as the intro to X.

Swunk. Keep coming back bro. I like your musical mind that seeks to understand how these guys play.

Peace

Joined : 11 Sep 2006 Posts : 137

Manfred! I love your posts! I do.

I often mention Dave Weckl and how he might work within the movements of Coleman.

Believe me.....Weckl is a master drummer. Write to me at herbkicks@yahoo.com and I'll send to you some of the most amazing music you've ever heard. Dave Weckl's LIVE version of "Mesmer-eyes" is one of the most amazing moments of "live" music that our world has ever known. This is possibly the greatest set of live music that our generation has yet to hear (Mesmer-eyes).

Steve....you have some serious competition. You may not think so, but I do. I want Dave Weckl in your band one day. Please give this dream to us.

Peace.

Joined : 03 Apr 2006 Posts : 254 Localisation : Paris

Hey scott,

Email sent Smile

About dave weckl playing with Steve, well I dont know him personnaly so I dont know really but it would be strange to me just by looking at his recordings.

He is probably one of the greatest technician on his instrument but i dont see him ready to have his whole musical system changed by Steve.

Cause that's the point, Steve has a very personal way of thinkin about music and every musician I saw playing with him, even very gifted and talented ones, have to get used to his music. Some dont or wont cause when you spent years at learnin somehting you dont like to restart almost from zero Wink

Once again I dont know really Dave and his music, only the fusion stuff he did long ago, so I cant really say.

Of course I understand that you want this in your dream to happen, cause you love his drumming skills but I'd rather see an technically average musician with open mind than a genius with narrow mind, Im sure you understand.

reminds me of a dream I had when I was a kid :
Jimi Hendrix with Miles Davis

a few month later I read that they actually knew each others and that they wanted to play together, I was stunned !

Dim.
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Joined : 11 Sep 2006 Posts : 137

Dim,

Song sent!

First, Weckl will never appear with Coleman because of the different in musical philosophies. What I would be asking for would be for Steve to change approaches, and that just isn’t going to happen….much like me asking that he play some of Dylans music.

One thing to remember is that Steve has the difficult chore of writing music that each of his musicians would be able to understand and play. Weckl would still fit into that category and he would bring a certain freshness, or “new” sound. But in the end, is it really a new sound?

Again, try to understand my curiosity. And its this, if we could interchange each of the drummers within each musical set, how different would the music be. Its really a simple concept, though I know that master creators such as Steve wouldn’t even entertain. He’s at such a level that such thoughts would bore him.

These are just ideas. Anyway, Smith is my fav Coleman drummer.

Joined : 11 Sep 2006 Posts : 137

Mr Swunk and any other that cares,

I made a mistake of creating a new topic called Pad Thai under General Discussion. I meant for that post to be here, but what the hell. A new topic has been born.

Mr Swunk....would love to hear you comments on Pad Thai! Of course, all other comments are encouraged.

Joined : 17 Aug 2007 Posts : 5

thumbs up for all of you cheers

, great comments there, i love em Very Happy

Ok ok i confess Razz

my favorite drummer is smith. i just cant believe his playing!!! other than black science we have terra nova, shift on the fly in album dropkick... i get curious of some other drummers with coleman too freewheelin but not weckl cause i think smith covers him beyond my curiosity, you know...

Now, what do you say about Marcus Gilmore in Gregorian in album Weaving Symbolics? Now what is that? I think that coleman more and more going through "process in nature" idea. A way of thinking of creating sound on the level of natural processes.. How? almost all other recordings of coleman have their "natural process" tho... but they also have funk, fusion even rock groove patterns inserted somewhere in them so they werent as natural processed grooves. i can even call them corrupted grooves on the level of "natural process". it is like using knowledge to make it natural, kinda ironic huh? i recall some saying of miles davis, it was like, "you have to crawl for learning and then you have to learn how to crawl". but then you now too much how can u learn crawling again?!
one thing is for sure, u cannot express yourself without technical knowledge. when it comes to make a sound like a process in nature your mind should command your body to achieve necessary output.
What i hear in gregoiran is nearly uncorrupted natural process Very Happy

. marcus isnt even trying single stroke transitions! he is like fluid mechanics, as in nature and i love that drumming there, i think there is an incredible groove there very addictive, mind blowing...
here is the coleman loops i've made editing.. check them out!

http://rapidshare.com/files/64206390/coleman-Loops-1.zip
http://rapidshare.com/files/64200580/coleman-Loops-2.zip

hey freewheeling! can u also send that song to me to bildiz@gmail.com and feel free to send anything interesting, thnx

Tyshawn Sorey!!

http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/weku/.artsmain/article/3/1083/1157493/Jazz/Tyshawn.Sorey:.Total.Recall./