Steve Coleman Archives Forum

I’m not a musician and have no musical knowledge. So I speak about my impressions and about what I read.

I think:
I see several streams in Jazz: Coltrane went to „Free Jazz“ which produces big sounds and dissolves rhythms into sounds. Steve Coleman, Greg Osby, Gary Thomas etc. decrease the importance of sound and increase the importance of melody-lines, rhythms, fluidity etc. – that’s near Charlie Parker! Coleman calls Parker as a main influence. O.k., Parker improvised above rather rigid rhythmical and harmonic structures. But it is really great how he breaks out of it and rises like a bird. When I listen to his “Famous Alto Break” (Night In Tunisia) I can not say that Coleman would be greater. – When I listen to Coltrane’s “Blues Minor” (Africa Brass) I see such impressive motions that I can’t say that Coleman would be greater.

Improvising above very complex rhythmical structures is maybe the greatest and most “jazzy” thing and mostly it is the most fascinating thing for me. But it is not the only quality of Jazz – I think.

Another stream: Jazz began with European march rhythms. But already in the beginning there was the “Latin tinge” (Jelly Roll Morton called it so) and the melody-lines of Louis Armstrong were very dancing. The Bebop-rhythms were regarded as rather African. Dizzy Gillespie brought Afro-Cuban-rhythms to Jazz. Art Blakey went to West-Africa to study rhythms … Steve Coleman says in his bio that he early became influenced by West-African rhythms … His words to the CD “The Sign and The Seal” begin with Charlie Parker’s “Mango Manguei” …

A thing in which I would be interested: In North America the slaves lost their African rhythms because their music was forbidden. So Jazz first was rather European though the feeling was African. I seems that the power of the idea of an African identity has driven Jazz more and more to a sort of African character – with the help of music from Latin America where African music was not forbidden to the slaves.

I regard Coleman as an outstanding result of these developments and I guess that this agrees with his own perspective of an African Diaspora (?).

He said in an interview:
“For example, with the rhythmic thing that you mentioned, with the odd times and everything -- I see the rhythms more similar to speech. For example, I'm not talking to you in 4/4. I'm not talking to you in 3/4, or in any 4. However, my speech has a rhythm. There's a cadence to it, there's a certain kind of rhythm to the way I speak. That's why when I call my friends they recognize me instantly; from the tone, the rhythm, certain phrases I always say -- the same way I would recognize Charlie Parker's playing. The same way. And so I just think about phrases and the ways they relate to each other. The relationships they have. I don't think about: "okay, I'm going to do something in three-and-a-half," or something like that. However, I have to know enough about music so that if I'm explaining this to somebody who doesn't think the way I think -- and there's a good chance of that -- then, I have to know enough about the technical elements of music. For example, if I want to write it out using European notation. I write out a lot of things with no time signature. But in the end, you're still using values like quarter-notes, eighth-notes, half-notes, things like that. So even if you don't write time signatures, or using measures, you're still using time-values. So in a sense, you're still dealing with meter. But that's only on paper. That has nothing to do with what I'm hearing in my head and creating. It's like an idea that you have. You can have an idea in less than a second. But to explain it to somebody, it may take a minute, two minutes; it may take all day. The realization could have just come in a flash. Well, who knows how ideas appear in our brain. I'm just using this as an example. The same thing happens with the time signatures and the things like that. When we play, me and the members of my band are not thinking about it. A lot of times I don't even know what time a song is in. Somebody will come up and say: "What time is that tune in," and we all look at each other and say "I don't know. Let's count it and find out." Some of these songs you can't put into time signatures. It's just the nature of the -- everybody might be in a different spatial relationship.“
http://www.m-base.com/interview_Chinen.html

This point of view reminds me of what I read about African music.

Once I read in an article: “… I recently heard Matt Garrison, fellow Coleman alum, at a recent clinic/performance sum up Coleman's M-Base methodologies with his (Coleman’s) instructional mantra, sometimes delivered effusively at rehearsals: ‘Don't Count!Dance!’ … … …“

Another aspect: On the CD “Transmigration” it isn’t easy to distinguish Coleman from Greg Osby!

But you are certainly right: Ultimately Coleman’s music is unique. - (even though connected).

It’s so good to talk with you.

Manfred

Joined : 20 Apr 2006 Posts : 57 Localisation : Rome

Joined : 11 Sep 2006 Posts : 137

Manfred,

I'm speachless. I have a million thoughts yet I don't know what to say.

For the first time in my life (since I've joined this forum), I've always known more about Coleman than anyone I've ever known or spoken to. Here, at this forum, I am the complete student and I love it.

At a couple of points in your post I felt like weeping out of awe to both your understandings as well as the message of Coleman in his interview. He said, "The same thing happens with the time signatures and the things like that. When we play, me and the members of my band are not thinking about it. A lot of times I don't even know what time a song is in. Somebody will come up and say: "What time is that tune in," and we all look at each other and say "I don't know. Let's count it and find out."

That's what I'm talking about! That is so incredible! And what makes this even more incredible, is that the Parkers, Blakeys, Monks, Coletranes, Farmers and so on, would only sit back and marvel over what he's doing and has already done.

On the other hand, Coleman hasn't always been so "freewheelin" with his structure. X-format has a click track (you can barely hear it), though this may have been used only to get them started, for after the band joins him, you no longer hear that click track. Turbulence is a very precicely written piece of music, as I once knew it almost drum stroke per drum stroke in my mind. The amazing thing about Turbulence is that I've never been able to figure out the time signature....I suppose I'd need to spend more time or perhaps program the drum track into Cubase to truly understand.

So yes, there are clearly structured compilations by Coleman, Ur Beat is one of them, Dread Drop and Drop Kick are others, but then we have pieces like Tschanz where the intro/theme is clearly written in seven/eight time, but after that, I don't have a clue until they come back to the theme....then and only then am I able to start playing along again. I'm a drummer and have a hard time understanding the rhythm. It is only by the bass line that I am able to have any sense of the rhythm, and how amazing that bass line is.

So we see clearly structured Coleman in some parts, while in others we see that "freewheelin" aspect of the music where they connect as one body, or one spirit of music so as to create something that almost transcends music itself. Tschanz seems to be a very good example of that. Ain't Goin Out Like That could be another.

Manfred....why aren't you a musician? You are unbelievable! You have so much depth....I wish that I could just sit and talk with you for hours. I'm sorry that I haven't addressed your entire post. It's past four in the morning here and I'm beat. I'll pour over your words more and ask more questions, but I think I'm getting what you guys are trying to tell me.

Thanx for your patience!

Joined : 11 Sep 2006 Posts : 137

Manfred,

Your post is so amazing! I think that I won't comment anyfurther and simply let it stand on its own. It is powerful and explains so much to me.

Zeruyo,

You too are amazing! It is perplexing to read the passion in your words, yet neither you nor Manfred play an instrument. I urge you to pick up an instrument and learn how to play it and play it well.

Let me tell you my experience with drum (the short version). It took me probably four to six years to get to a point/level where I listened to myself play and thought, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe what my body is able to do. I can't believe what I am hearing first through the concept of my soul, then through the efforts of my physical body". I had reached a certain level/skill where I was actually making a significant sound that depended on the skilled efforts of all four limbs. When that moment happens, you find that there is no limit to what you can do. If there is a limit, it is the limitation of your efforts and desire to seek new rhythms by which you can expand upon so that you might call these rhythms your own.

Well, I'll save my endless stream of thoughts for future posts. But to Manfred, Dim, Zeruyo and Charles....I humble myself to you and your many insightful thoughts.

Very Happy

Joined : 20 Apr 2006 Posts : 57 Localisation : Rome

Joined : 11 Sep 2006 Posts : 137

Joined : 11 Sep 2006 Posts : 137

Is it possible that what you call lazy foot is actually intentional ?

I think there is a way to play where the time is actually intentionally ambiguous, less defined.

Also is it fair to say that you have been listening more to 'fusion' guys than to non fusion guys (I almost said straightahead guys, but JD is not a straightahead guy. Bill Stewart will be)?

CM

Joined : 11 Sep 2006 Posts : 137

Joined : 11 Sep 2006 Posts : 137

I'm sorry to say this, but I just listened to one of Jacks solo CDs and he demonstrates perhaps the worst left foot I've ever heard (from Parallel Realities....especially track 5). I love his right hand and right foot, and I particularly love his left hand on the snare, but the left foot obviously was never a point of major concern for him. I could list a ton of better drummers than DJ because of that (this does not include the three prominent drummers for Coleman, or Dave Weckl himself).

Here's a quick list:

Chad Wackerman
Lenny White
Billy Cobham
Dennis Chambers
Trilok Gurtu
Phil Collins - with Brand X
Vinnie Colauita
Rod Morgenstein
Tommy Brechtlein
Joey Heredia
Bill Bruford
David Garibaldi
Kirk Covington
Gary Husband
Omar Hakim
Bill Stewart
Mark Mondesir

JD as sloppy ?

I must say that this comes as a shock to me.

So far JD is up there in my list of favorite drummers. Since I know next to nothing about drummer's technique I will give you the benefit of the doubt. But for me JD is a great "tension builder", and the drummer that I like tend to be very good at adding a lot of "drama" to the music.

Like Tony Williams, which is my favorite drummer of all time. I am not sure what he was playing with the Miles David quintet was technically up there, but the places he choose to play certain patterns ( and the pattern themselves) just gives the music ,as well as Miles or for that matter Sam Rivers (in "Spring". Which is way up there in my list of favorite albums of all times) or Wayne Shorter solos another dimension.

CM