What are you listening to?

Hi Charles!

I have noticed your very interesting question about „Li Bai” only now.

I am not a musician. Therefore I can only talk about impressions and I can not find out whether Steve Coleman’s music is more and more codified or not. But all this codes are not important for me. I don’t believe in esoteric and I don’t like this kind of thinking. Nevertheless I love his music. I don’t have to be a Catholic to like the music of Johann Sebastian Bach.
From my point of view Steve Coleman is dealing with very complex structures in a very aesthetical (emotional) way. That is important! It is not important HOW he gets the inspiration. So I think.
The complex musical structures mirror the structures of human thinking and feeling. That’s a very important aspect of music in general. Therefore J.S. Bach’s music and Coleman’s music are so strong (among other aspects). That’s my opinion.

What I regard as a development of the last years is the following: The harmonic structures and the webs of interwoven voices became as complex as the rhythmical structures. Is that right?

“Seth”: I can not understand the DVD (my English is too bad). There is a “Seth” on the CD “The Sonic Language Of Myth” (!?).

Hi Manfred.
Of course it's perfectly fine if you are not interested in the esoteric background behind Steve's music. I think Steve's himself does not push that side of his music too hard I would say.. though in other ways it's all over the place and hard to miss.

As far as the changes in the music. I am not a musician either. And I am getting so frustrated of not knowing what's going on, especially when I know there is so much going on in that music ( I will probably go back to learn how to play the saxophone to understand a little bit more of what's going on.). But I will agree with you on the more prominent role of the voices.

But when you think about it, voices have been part of Steve's music I think since his first commercial record, "Motherland Pulse", with Cassandra Wilson, right ? But i never hear somebody not singing lyrics but singing a whole saxophone solo. Do you think Jen has to learn the solo note by note or do you think she's improvising ? Some of it sounds like she his reading the notes, because it is so well developed. I was watching one of the CalArts workshop that I have downloaded from Dimtri's ftp site, and there also as soon as Steve picks up his sax and starts a bebop tune, she is following with almost a perfect rendition of the composition head. I think she is practicing the solos like any of the musician. What do you guys think ?

As far as Seth is concerned, yes it is on the "Sonic Language of Myth". On the dvd he gets to explaining what or some of what Seth means, when he explains how they built the computer improviser. From what I have gathered Seth is like lets say a 'music personality' ( one of many that he was trying to train the computer to adopt) that is characterized by certain ratio progressions. I could give you a full detailed transcript if reading english is easier than listening. Let me know.

CM.

Hi Charles!

>> voices have been part of Steve's music I think since his first commercial record <<

Yes!!! And I always have regarded his voice on the sax as singing and so I cannot understand the problem about Graham Haynes (etc.) is talking on the Weaving-DVD.

But what I meant: One said that “Weaving Symbolics” would sound very European. I also think so in some respects: the “voice leading” of two or more voices build up a web of lines which sometimes remind me of J.S. Bach etc.. The very complex streams of sounds in “Circle Weaving Thirteen” (etc.) remind me of the great European masters of harmonics (Beethoven etc.). In an interview Coleman spoke about his preference for Beethoven, Bella Bartok. The rhythmical and melodic aspects of Coleman’s music have been developed on a very high level for a long time. How to expand now? Into the area in which the European composers developed the music! To do that was also a dream of Charlie Parker (and Ornette Coleman tried it). – BUT: Steve Coleman does it in his own (Afro-American) way: by improvisation! He talks about his preference for the MOVEMENT of the structures (on “Weaving”-DVD) and he says that improvisation is the best way to express the movements. And he “uses” the voices of the other melody-instruments (incl. voc) a bit like his own (second) instrument. He seems to play the “band” with his communicative (and dominant) leadership. Is that a bit of Duke Ellington?
That’s the way I think about the last “Changes”. But I only guess!

>> But i never hear somebody not singing lyrics but singing a whole saxophone solo <<

I think that’s good old SCAT tradition (Ella, Vaughan, John Hendricks, Betty Carter, Dee Dee Bridgewater etc.). I don’t know nothing but I guess that Jen Shyu uses her voice quite similar as a sax. Something is learned note by note, the most is improvised and very important is: She has built up an own style of improvising which she uses in her improvisations. I read that Cannonball Adderley said: He could improvise for a long time without thinking about the music (his thought were with a woman etc.). However this seems impossible in Coleman’s band. Wink

Seth:

>> I could give you a full detailed transcript if reading english is easier than listening. Let me know. <<

Ouu, yeah! bounce

That would be really great! I tried to get it from Eve-Marie Breglia … but she could not give it.

Would you be so nice to send it – per e-mail – or put it in the forum because others may also like it.

Manfred

Joined : 03 Apr 2006 Posts : 276 Localisation : Paris

Hi all,

I forgot the question about Libai etc, sorry Charles.

So here is what I can explain until Jen came by the site.

First of all Steve is always asking other musicians from his group to compose tunes that he might record and release in the album. So Jen took her chance to show her composing skill.
Libai was rehearsed for 1 or 2 hour during the rehearsing session before the recording session took place 2 days after, the song went quiet well and everybody got a hold on their line rather quick. Jen was conducting the rehearsing with some advice from Steve at some point but all in all she did everything on her own.
She brought the musicians scores and she took the time to explain the words that she was singin, about the great Li Bai character which is reall y strong in chinese mythology.

then the recording session took place and in the last day, the morning, they made 3 attempts at the song (only 2 goes thru the end), the one that was released and another shorter version.

The vibe during the release take was very good, Jen was conducting with a firm idea in her mind and you can see a little bit of the recording in the video I did "conversations" who is included in Steve's last album.

There is some really strong Malik Flute solo and Steve is heard playing quiet differently than in other tunes of the album, his sound is very smooth and he plays mainly legato.

At the end of the second take everybody felt the first was better, Steve seemed happy by the tune and everybody went to lunch Laughing

About Jen way of singing etc...
As every other musicians, drummers included, she practiced
solos from Coltrane, Parker, Von Freeman etc everytime.
She is really using her voice as an instrument so she is learning sax or trumpet solos and she is also improvising with her voice.

The contrary is also true, the musicians are singing their parts or they are singing Parker, Coltrane etc solos...

When on tour, There is no dinner without some singin from Steve or Jonathan, then the all band join....it could be James Brown, Parker or Jimi Hendrix Cool

Very often during rehearsals they are only singin, they dont even touch their instruments...they just clap and sing !

............

An another subject, the fact that you should get into Steve's universe to really understand what's going on....
true.

But there is a difference between understanding and feeling....you dont need to understand to feel but you really need have a feel for the music to understand !

I mean, nobody will ever get into Steve's head...this cat is a hard worker...he is always reading, practicing, teaching. I've never seen someone as deeply focused on his art as he is.

So what you can do is trying to catch what he says and read what he has read...but even with a lifetime you wont get it !

I have seen very gifted musicians completly blown away by Steve's music just because they were not feeling the music...they tried to learn the complex aspects without even being capable of singin Donna Lee Theme !

Steve is kinda explaning this in the "conversations" DVD too, when he says Sean or Jonathan might not want to understand what is behind Steve's music. It is interresting.

Eve Marie did a great job on her Document because you can see she tried to learn what Steve was learning. Remember she spent years filming and understanding what was in Steve's mind at that time.
then she transcript the idea in her movie with kinda simpler words for everybody to understand. And it is very difficult to simplificate without getting far from the original subject.

From my perspective, after having spent some time with him I will say Im not ready yet to really go deeper in his philosophy or whatever you call it.

I've some strong feeling for his music, and that's from the very first time I heard him play back in 1992, but I never really understood the philosophy behind this, I mean..I get the general idea but not the exact idea..that's simply impossible. As time goes by I get closer and closer because I somtime read a book which explains something he told me but Im far from understanding the clear picture, let's tell the truth.

But it is obvious that, even with a HUGE knowledge of what he teach, I wont be able to go deeper as I want to go mentally if I dont "feel" (abstract word) the music.

I hope that oneday he will release some written material for us to better understand what he think.

Well, it is of course difficult for me to really express what I think because english is not my first language but I hope you will get it.

Dimitri.
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www.stevecolemanarchives.com

Thank you Dimitri for that very interesting post.
And thank you Charles for initializing that.

I wonder if all that singing and clapping cause that this music sounds naturally though it is very complex.

The Rameses project is interesting for me but I don’t really like this music. Coleman’s theories seem to be really extreme. And I see on the “Elements Of One”-DVD the other musicians smiling and rolling their eyes. BUT: When I see Coleman talking enthusiastically about this project on this DVD it is inspiring. My impression is: He is a master in animating! As far as any computer can be animated Coleman could do it.

It may be good to know much about the trees in a forest. But it doesn’t help when I’m lonesome in the forest. Maybe I whistle a song and remember old stories about mythical creatures living in the forest … I mean: It doesn’t suffice to know about reality because our souls have their own principles. We need music, stories, ideas etc. to combine our souls with the so called reality.

I have read that also natural scientists are often highly inspired by things like the beauty of nature, numerical proportions etc.. Beauty is important in science. For example Einstein’s formula e=mc²: It is so strong because it is also beautiful: simple, clear.

I think: Cultural things which animate our souls (music, stories etc.) don’t need to be completely realistic. Their “message” is important. For example: Nobody believes that Sun Ra really was born on planet Saturn as he told. But we can understand the message: Life can be more than a frustrating existence in a simple reality. We feel the vision which animates.

So it is not important for me to know the details of Coleman’s interests. Maybe some details I would regard like Sun Ra’s birth. But I like much his overwhelming creativity, his connection to nature, the beauty in his ideas, the movements, the richness in complexity, the elements of singing and dancing …

Once again Manfred I think your perspective is perfectly fine. In that I mean, if you wish to experience the music as such without paying too much attention to the underlying concepts nobody will blame you for that. Everybody is entitled to experience the music as he wish.

For myself I had some interest into some of the concepts that Steve's using prior to him explaining his music in these terms. And I have other sources to be exposed to the same concepts. I was and still so delighted to find these concepts used in this fashion. And also my mind is bent that way may be...I see beauty in the pure sound but also beauty in numbers(ratios) put in action (in fact I came to understand "Element of One" as the a chronicle of how certain ratios travel through time and space)

Well, I still ow you a transcript of the section of the dvd that talks about Seth. Well in fact it is very very short !

There are 2 parts where Steve talks about Seth:
First in the chapter about Ramses and second in the Extras again about Ramses. Basically what he his saying is that each egyptian god which is also call Neter can be associated to a certain principle (in fact a ratio I think). Seth in particular represents symmetrical structure(which ratio is that I am not sure, but I'm researching that) , while Maat is the principle of balance or the Golden mean. What is confusing there is that in my mind symmetry and balance are very similar.

But in the liner notes of the "Sonic language of myth" Steve gives a little bit more details (just a tiny more) about Seth: the principle of resistance, the contracting power and enemy of Heru without which there can be no movement. This composition starts with a sound that symbolizes Sunset. The sounds represent the first passage of the Soul into the Dwat (the Kemetic underworld) and the beginning of its journey on the path of reincarnation where it meets certain resistances in the form of tests. Actually, Apophis (related to Seth) is the principle of resistance that the Soul constantly meets in the Dwat
In fact from a Christianity perspective Seth will be closest to what we call the devil (look for example at the Wiki entry for Apophis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophis... but in fact Apophis is not exactly Seth though. According to Steve there are related, meaning they are not the same) .

But I'm sure at this point you're saying to yourself " I don't care about all that, enough already !!" So I will leave at that.

As I re-read the liner notes of "Sonic" I realize that probably a lot of the structural complexity of Steve's music, is about ratios- one ratio morphing into another as different principles are expressed or invoked.. It's fascinating !!
Of course there is more to that, and I am not pretending that I figured out all of Steve's approach. But I'm very patient.

>> But I'm sure at this point you're saying to yourself " I don't care about all that, enough already !!" <<

No!!!

That’s really interesting because it deals with pictures of themes of life. I read the text about Seth when I bought the “Sonic Language” and I thought I would understand what Coleman meant.
You have a lot of knowledge. So I don’t know if I can add something. Give me some time to try it.

In the German Wikipedia there is an article about Seth:

The name “Seth” means “great in power”, “agitator of confusion” or “actor of violence”

Seth is a very ambivalent character, predominantly bad. What he symbolizes changed over the years and his meaning is not completely clarified.

Originally he was a god of the dessert - therefore a god of storms, of chaos and ruin. On the other hand he was a protector against these things. Some kings used his name to get his powers. In the time of the Ramessids Seth was one of the 4 most important gods.
He was also meant as a god of anger, violence and murder. He is an antagonist of Maat’s harmony.

Seth’s hour is the sixth hour. Therefore later the Satanism was also called “cult of the sixth” (The name “Seth” seems to be the origin of the word “Satan”).

If the Egyptians had 12 hours in the day the sixth hour was the half => symmetry??

Apophis is a snake which hates the sun and eats it every evening. Seth is the only one who can kill the snake and he kills it every morning. So the sun gets free and can rise up. But the snake gets a new life every day and eats the sun again …

I think that’s also a story about a very symmetrical process.

I don’t think that Seth (or Apophis) and the Christian devil are really similar because there is not the moral imperative of the Christian religion. And the character of Seth seems to be complex and floating – no personalization of all bad.

I think Seth in the sense of “Sonic Language” is: hard times, “I got the blues”, a frustrating and dangerous way we have to pass, the breakdown that makes something new possible, the confusion that leads to a higher understanding.

We often don’t like to see the part of Seth. But often he is necessary to build that symmetry which turns the wheel of nature, the coming and going, birth and death, the growth, the new ideas etc.

Once I had an idea and tried to explain it talking with an American drummer. My English is bad but he could understand me and expressed it in the following way: In Jazz often “violence is beautiful”. There is a lot of aggression in Jazz we can enjoy. This I regard as a positive “incarnation” of Seth. The aggression in music helps me to be a nice man (symmetry). I need a place for Seth to prevent him from destroying Maat’s harmony (right symmetry to get balanced).

That’s the way I can think about such mythical things. I think they are never exact, only aspects, ideas, very intuitional, with free associations.

Joined : 03 Apr 2006 Posts : 276 Localisation : Paris

But I'm sure at this point you're saying to yourself " I don't care about all that, enough already !!" So I will leave at that.

[/quote]

Not at all mate !

I thought it was interresting to read.

Dim.
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www.stevecolemanarchives.com

Joined : 11 Sep 2006 Posts : 137

Well my goodness. This thread is incredible. Just reading Dim's words alone brought tears to my eyes as I imagined some of the experiences of Coleman and the band during dinners. Incredible insight, thank you, Dim!

Continue on with your veins of thoughts but I'd like to go back to the title of this thread: What Are You Listening To

Believe it or not, and don't choke on yourself, but I've been listening alot to Bob Dylan. Before Bob I was pretty much consumed with Coleman for the last 15 years. Steve will always be the king of music to me unless someone else comes along and transforms music in a completely new way, which is what Coleman has done. Bob Dylan isn't really a good singer, though he did win a grammy for the Best Male Vocalist in 1979 - amazing eh? His music isn't challenging either, though there were some cool things that appear through his music. After all, he had some good musicians like Mike Bloomingfield (I think was his name) on guitar.

So why have I listened to Dylan? For only one reason, really, and its an element that Coleman has. When you listen to a certain set of Dylans music, you are able to view his heart through sound. When you can view and feel the soul of another through sound, space between the notes and the lenght of the notes, you have really found something special. Luther Vandross is/was also very good at this, but with Dylan there are fifty or 75 of his tunes that give you that window into his heart, soul and mind.

So I listened to Dlyan for the most part of the last 6 months. A couple of days ago I was talking music with a co-worker and told her about Coleman. My arms were flailing, my grin was wide and I was speaking in terms of the "African way of knowing". I'd told her that I'd also wept when listening to a few of his songs, One Bright Morning for example and she responded by saying, "Scott, your passion for this music alone has me excited to hear it). So I went home and found that I had two copies of this compilation set. On the way to work I plugged that produced and mixed set of Colemans tunes into my CD player and felt like I'd been out of the country and just returned home. Hearing Colemans music again after six months was like setting my heart free to the incredible joys of Coleman's brilliant mind and the skills that his musicians are willing to give to Coleman and his musical needs. The CD set includes the following compositions in order as heard:

Ain't Goin' Out Like That
Day One
Simbius Web
Terra Nova
Fortitude
Armageddon
Nobody Told Me
Flint
One Bright Morning
Neutral Zone
Wild
The X-Format
Black Phonemics
Turbulence

So now my attention is back on Steve. I'm on a tight budged and haven't been able to buy his latest material. I've been trying to get onto his site to see if there are new compositions available, but am not successful.

Fellas, you are all amazing. I can't believe that this forum isn't generating any traffic. What you all have to offer is so unbelievable. Finding people to come up to this level of musical understanding is very difficult. I mean, Dylan forms contain thousands of members who often have as many as 15,000+ posts. Dylan, though complex in his own influencial ways to society and music is still pretty simple, so its no wonder that the following is so expansive. It really saddens my heart that more people don't understand. I once had an opera singer tell me that his music wasn't even music. Another person said that Coleman's music sound like a cow screaming as it was dying. Of course, we are not offended, rather, we just understand that these people aren't able to hear what we hear and we know that they are missing something at genius level.

Let's keep posting. Maybe this forum will be going after we're all gone because only then will Coleman be respected for his efforts (though I hope not).

Peace

Joined : 28 Sep 2006 Posts : 13

I deliberately put Li Bai in the center. This composition acts as an axis around which the others are formed. Here is a translation of what Jen is saying:

-----
At a Farewell Banquet for Shu Yun, the Imperial Librarian, in Xie Tiao's pavilion, Xuanzhou. – by Li Bai

It has left me and gone –
Yesterday is a day that cannot be drawn back!
Disturber of my heart –
Today is a day bleak and joyless.
Long winds from a great distance speed the autumn geese.
Before this scene, let us carouse in the high pavilion!

Your writings are like the work of Immortals on Peng Lai, in essence like the School of Jian'an,
In purity and freedom like the younger Xie's,
With power to exhilarate and lift the spirit
So that we yearn to mount the heavens and clasp the bright moon!
But draw a knife to cut the stream –
The stream only flows the faster;
Raise a cup to quench your sorrow --
Sorrow grows heavier still.
Man's life in this world seldom matches his hopes:
Early tomorrow, with unkempt hair,
I shall take to a small boat.
-----

Jen's Chinese name comes from the 5th line of this poem. Her parents took this line and named her and her brother. Jen's Chinese name means 'Autumn Geese' and her brothers Chinese name means 'Long Winds'.

I thought the sound of this poem and the music would best be positioned symbollically in the center of the program.

A professor explained to Jen that "The feeling of inevitability runs throughout the poem and nothing one can do to stop the inevitable."

I certainly concur with this. On a certain level we have free will but I feel this is within a very complicated structure that can be best described as Layers of Fate. So on a universal level there is only the Will of the Universe. I believe that the principles behind the I Ching are based on this concept of revealing the activity of the Universal Mind.

I did not really plan the layout of the CD, it just came to me, as it usually does. I follow my intuition in this regards becasue I believe that intuition is a version of the Inner Spirit speaking to you, and the Inner Spirit is but an individual manifestation of the Universal Mind.

Peace,

Steve

This is so beautiful.
CM

I have read that neurologists found out: We do things a little bit BEFORE we decide to do it. That means: We do it intuitively and then (a little bit later) we think that we have done it deliberately. So I think we have a will but it don’t belong to us Wink

It’s an illusion to make us feel good, to motivate us, to give us the feeling of being effective.

So I agree with this picture of an intrinsic stream. I think ultimately it is the stream of the universe but there is a special thing in the universe: life. First of all we are beings of life. The principles of life are guiding us. One said: We didn’t come out of the world. We came out of life. – I wonder: Is the African Retention a special sense of the principles of life? – For example: The first rhythm which a human being hears is the pulse of the heart of its mother when it is in her womb. It also feels the pulse via the bloodstreams. That seems to be the basic impression of a musical rhythm. I searched for an example of a heartbeat in music and so the bass drum of Motherland Pulse came to my mind (there is also a very impressive pulsation in Embryo, CD “The Ascension To Light”). I also found Brazilian percussion music (Samba) with very clear heartbeats. - Later in life another rhythmic experience comes along when we have learned to go (that’s a great feeling of success for every child). The frequency of walking is very near to the frequency of heartbeats. So the pulse in music is not only a heartbeat but also the pulse of walking (walking bass etc.). Walking combines rhythm with motion. I often remember what Manu Dibango said: “People in Africa don’t listen to the music. They dance the music. They listen by their feed” (he laughs). I can better feel melody-lines in improvisations when I regard it as a dancing – as a “Dancing In Your Head”. – I read that the sense of motions is the neurological basis of the so called “higher” brain functions. So I think there is a vast intellectual capability in motion which music like “Jazz” uses. … Maybe this music is so strong because it is so closely connected with the principles of life. … Certainly there is a connection of life to the principles of the inanimate parts of the universe. But I don’t have a feeling for these material things. I guess I’m too much made up of the processes of life …

Maybe these thoughts sound a bit spacy but I wonder if they are compatible with Steve Coleman’s philosophy in any way.

scratch

Joined : 11 Sep 2006 Posts : 137