Steve & Zorn on youtube

Joined : 08 Apr 2006 Posts : 27

Hi Guys,

I just found this :

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=NdgAy7rEnD4

What a Face

Thanks for this very interesting video. I read that Steve Coleman played with John Zorn and I wanted to hear that. Now it is possible! Thanks! cheers

To me Zorn is a bit like an “enemy” Rolling Eyes

because in the German “Jazz-Book” he is the hero of the presence king

(instead of others – especially Steve Coleman). So I wrote some words against him in a forum. Cool

When Zorn sounds o.k. it is a copy of Ornette Coleman. The rest is squeaking and some Klezmer clichés. In the “Armstrong-Parker-Coltrane-Line” (as Steve Coleman may call it) there is a kind of beauty, peace, love, soul … (however you call it). I can’t find that in Zorn’s music (except he is copying Ornette). He seems to have no respect and I don’t like that.

The best what Zorn has done is bringing out Steve Coleman’s latest CD “Invisible Path”.

These are my thoughts. But I may be wrong. I’m willing to learn. So I would like to read other opinions here.

Joined : 04 Apr 2006 Posts : 4 Localisation : Tokyo

I think your vision of Zorn music is not fair. Zorn is hated by many, thinking that he's not a correct "jazz" musician, because as you mentioned, he's no respect for the "amstrong-bird-coltrane" legacy and so on. But what ? Is jazz is about tradition ? It's always the same old discussion...Bird and Trane was hated as well at their time, because they broke the rules and try to find their own way of thinking and playing music. The same for Zorn...and Steve Coleman. You can dislike Zorn's music, but nobody can't deny he's one of the most aventurous sax player of our time...like Steve Coleman ! The thing is Zorn has made so many many records that there is obviously some trash in his production...but ! He has a sound ! He is always challenching music and is always on the edge...like once again Steve Coleman. Just figure out then why just a major creative musician like Steve finds some interest in playing with Zorn ? He's probably not so bad and uninteresting as you think...but like Steve, it takes time to really appreciate the music of this great jazzman !
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Nicopojin

Thanks for response, Nicopojin. My point is: I don’t understand why Zorn would be „one of the most adventurous sax players of our time”. To me he seems to be a copy of Ornette when he sounds well - and the rest is squeaking and some Klezmer clichés (as I have said). I think: Primarily he is an organizer of music (more than a sax player). He brings up these movie-like things, musical games with cards (card-games) etc. – always changing, without boundaries of genres, surprising, shocking … It’s more like “modern art” (Fluxus etc.) than the Armstrong-Coltrane-Line (Jazz).

I imagine: Steve Coleman played with Zorn in the first evening of the “Stone”-concerts because Zorn is the owner of the “Stone”-Club. I read that the entrance fee to the Stone-Club was higher in this evening than in the other evenings because Zorn himself played (as music would be better when the “master” himself is playing).

My impression of the video is: Zorn and Coleman don’t really sound well together. I guess: Coleman never would play with Zorn outside of that special situation in Zorn’s “Stone”-Club.

That’s my thoughts. They may be wrong. I hope I don’t antagonize you, Nicopojin. It’s interesting how different our perspectives (and those of the other participants of this forum probably too) are although we all have a preference for Steve Coleman’s music.

Joined : 08 Apr 2006 Posts : 27

For my part, I only know the Masada recordings of Zorn, and "spy vs spy". Sorry Manfred, but I don't find that he plays like Ornette.... scratch

Ok, some Masada melodies are very "Ornettian", but not in his playing...Zorn's harmonic language is always penta-blues or build with klezmer scales...And about his "pig scream" ? Ornette never do that ! Ornette's playing (not today unfortunatelly) was more harmonicaly advanced that Zorn's playing. For that, you can listen to all the Ornette's trio recordings in the 60's.

But, I think Zorn is a pretty good composer in the klezmer tradition. He actually builds a movement, you can find a lot of Masada-like orchestras all over the world, from Us to Israel, even here in France ! Perhaps it's a new wave of Free Jazz from the Jewish Poeple ? I think it's more political than musical..It's very interesting if you have a socio / anthropological point of view !

But if you have a musical point of view, the way of Steve is more complexe, more challenging in term of musical technique, knowledges, informations atc. It's not political like Masada. It's an initiatory and personnal way, like all the great jazzmen in the past showed to us...

And what about this video ? For me it means nothing ! It's too short to have a good opinion, but Zorn is playing too strong !!

For example at mark 00:06 of the video: Zorn starts with a typical Ornette-melody-line. Also in Zorn’s further playing I hear a lot of Ornette (in Zorn’s lines and his sound too).

Joined : 08 Apr 2006 Posts : 27

Ok I understand but for me the lignage between Ornette and Zorn is not so evident, because Zorn plays a lot of musical clichés in his solos...But I must say that I love that anyway Very Happy

You know I was born in Paris, France. In this country the "concept" in all modern and contemporary arts is very important, more than the aesthetic result in itself (remember Duchamp, Malevicth, Xenakis & co.)...

So, It's one of the reason (with the political vision) that Zorn is so famous here, and everywhere in Europe I Guess...

If you have a more esoteric and emotionnal approach to the music (an african way of feeling ?), it's evident that you must prefer Steve... Cool

Yeah! I agree! cheers

Except one little thing: I would not call it “esoteric and emotional” but: in the way I think about “Jazz”.
“african way of feeling“ – yes. But it also is the way of most people on earth how they use music. I guess.

Fine discussion with you! Smile

Joined : 03 Apr 2006 Posts : 278 Localisation : Paris

ok, nice writings from you guys, Ill add my 2 cents.

Music:
First of all, I dont know Zorn's music very well. the only recording I really listened to was the masada series which is like 5% of Zorn recordings.

I have some recordings from his various labels that I really like.

To me his music has always been very estetic (the modern art some of you described) and that kind of music usually dont interrest me much. the music must talk to my soul and feet as much as my brain, and I dont get the "soul and feet" part in Zorn's music. His playing is great, dont misunderstood me, and he has a sound of his own but I will be curious to hear a simple blues solo sax tune to see what will happend.

Thing i like is that he has no boundaries, he seems very free in his artstic choices.

Character:

i never met him personnaly, wish I could one day but all I can say is that the man has some "bollocks".
He is running a label (or ten's of label I must say), own a club in NYC and is touring a lot. that is very impressive and that must be praised I think. In today's world and the economics in music, that sure is a challenge. I deeply respect the man for that.

Steve being artistic director for a month in a club (small who cares?) showed me how good is the man cheers

.

about them both playing in the video, that only showed me how far they are from each other's in terms of musical ways.
this is only a few minutes but that dont sounds very good to me.

Dimitri.
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www.stevecolemanarchives.com

Very interesting, Dim! Thanks!

Joined : 08 Apr 2006 Posts : 27

Thanx Manfred the same to you..

I'am agree with you Dim, I hope than one day some guy will upload the live show at the Stone...

Joined : 07 Jun 2007 Posts : 6 Localisation : Brasil / USA

Hello all,

I would like to add something in response to Manfred's quote about the higher fee on the first night of the Stone concerts. The fee was not higher because Zorn played that night (there are several combinations of artists playing that night, not only Steve and Zorn). As far as I understood, the fee is always higher the first night of each curated month because it is more or less how they pay for the bills at The Stone. Many of you might not know how The Stone works (neither did I, but I just recently learned about it); there is one curator every month (invited by Zorn), responsible for inviting artists to play during that month; the curator also plays in some of the nights, of course. The artist/group playing each night get ALL of the revenue of that night, meaning that NOTHING goes back to Zorn or to The Stone. EXCEPT on the first night, which is clearly announced as a benefit concert, and when NONE of the artists actually get paid for the night. The total revenue of the first night pays for the bills to keep The Stone alive, which seems to be a very good approach in this "always-for-profit" world...

Joined : 03 Apr 2006 Posts : 278 Localisation : Paris

Paty,

just to be sure I fully understood, drinks are always for the Stone
Club and the entrance fees are for each group playing on that night except the first
night (curator introduction kind of) where entrance fees are for the Stone, right ?

thanks for the explanation Paty, interresting and seems a very good approach to me. I'd love to go there one time.

Dim.
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www.stevecolemanarchives.com

Thanks for explanation!

Once I read:

„For the Berliner Zeitung, Christian Broecking reports about the small New York jazz club The Stone in the Bowery, opened in a former china fast food place by John Zorn. The room only holds 40 people, the fee is 10 to 15 dollars - except if Zorn himself performs, which will raise the fee to 20 dollars. For the month of January Steve Coleman will be in charge of the program. Next door is the Downtown Music Gallery, the hippest record shop for the avant-jazz/rock/pop/whatever scene.“ (News of a German Jazz institute)

Joined : 07 Jun 2007 Posts : 6 Localisation : Brasil / USA

Hi Dim,

No drinks are allowed at The Stone. They do not sell anything to drink or eat in there, it is a place ONLY for music. Not even dancing is allowed, because they do not have a special license for it (yes, this is NY city).

So just to be clear again, The Stone only gets money on the benefit night. The money from all the other night goes to the artists of the night.

Tica