"normal" time vs. "musical" time

I just got home from Steve's Monday workshops at the Jazz Gallery in New York City, where i've been every Monday helping Steve showing some aspects of his process. However, for me, even as part of the band, it's a learning process (well, as with everything of quality in life). Tonight the audience (half musicians, half just people interested in his music) was asking Steve about the difference between normal time (as measured by the clocks and different calendar systems in place, etc.) and musical time. so i pose this question to those around the world on this forum...thanks Dimitri for your hard work in maintaing this site! jen

Joined : 03 Apr 2006 Posts : 276 Localisation : Paris

Jen,

First of all thanks for your kind words and I'm very happy to have you registered at the forum.

About the question, well....

Normal time
The universe is not still, it is moving and as soon as there is a motion, there is time involved.
I'd say that "normal time" is a basic and useful concept for the description of this process.
Very often "normal time" is a landmark, a cornerstone in which we could make comparisons and we can say past, present, future refering to one landmark.
Einstein defined it as " that which a clock measures" which is a very pragmatic definition.

"Musical time"
Here we have the notion of music, which rely heavily on time.
Time signature, cycles, melodies...
I've seen Steve superimposing multiple time signature on one song or adapting a melody to different time signature etc.

We can say that he is a master at playing with time, he is well known for his relation to time in his music.
To me it seems Steve has multiple time at once in his head and he goes from one to the other easily, with no effort.

And when you think about it, you must tell yourself that it is stupid to play music only with one time reference, this is a very restrictive way of thinkin about music.
Like for example if you are playing music with only 2 notes !

It is the same with time and music, you can free your mind and use a variety of time and cycles instead of the usual ones. And you can mixed different time signature in one song.

We all have been mesmerized by different musicians in Steve's band playing different time signature and suddenly they all gather in one spot...then they diverge, then converge and then..CLANK...all together.
Different cycles forming a global song.

I recommend listening to the Rameses 2000 project for example.

It is a vast subject.

Dimitri.
_________________
www.stevecolemanarchives.com

(My English is bad, please excuse me)

I am a non-musician. Therefore I may misunderstand the question and miss the point. However I try to contribute some thoughts:

Good music plays an artful game with the human sense of time. The musical time is a mode of the way how time appears in the human sensation.

It is fascinating to see monkeys (for examples Gibbons) jumping in the trees – it is very acrobatic. They would fall to the ground and die if they had not a very sharp sense of distances, timing and movements. We have their genes.

Our sense of time and timing is closely connected with the feeling for movement. We cannot conceive time without filling it out with a rhythm (moving the body or only in mind). We cannot think a rhythm without imaging movement – whether the rhythm is created by a foot tapping or an electrical impulse in the nervous system.

Therefore in the sensation time appears as nearly the same as movement. So I think.

I read in a book about brain research: The higher brain functions are developed from the much older sense of movement. In evolution new abilities are mostly developed by transmitting existing functions into a new area. In this way the sense of body-movement seems to have been important for the development of the thoughts.

The connection between the movements of the body and the movements of the thoughts is one of the most exciting aspects of music (for me). Just in this aspect I am fascinated by Steve Coleman’s music more than by any other music. It is an important reason for my preference for it. This music plays a very complex game with my feeling for movements and the sense of different time-structures. It is like an adventurous jumping in the highly structured world of the Gibbons in the trees – but in the enormous fields of human mind.

Some more thoughts:

The nervous system is very receptive to rhythms and it tends to produce rhythmic structures itself. For example: When we do a monotonous work we fall into a rhythm. When we hear the “tick, tick, tick …” of a clock we tend to hear it as a “tick, tack, tick, tack …” (we complicate the rhythmic structure a bit and so we realize it in unrealistic way!).

Musical rhythms have a strong resonance (vibrancy) in the nervous system: it answers with multiple feelings on different levels (body-feeling, emotions etc.), the thinking may have its fun with the stimulating structures of the rhythms … sometimes the responsiveness to rhythms can be so strong that the person falls in trance.

Therefore I think: The musical time is a special time because of the nervous system’s tendency to respond to rhythms with a special resonance (vibrancy). But it doesn’t respond to every kind of rhythm: The rhythms of the calendar, of the hours, and minutes have too long frequencies. But the rhythm of the second hand of the clock can be musical. I have read that somebody saw in Africa children dancing to the backfire (exhaust) of a car engine.

Joined : 03 Apr 2006 Posts : 276 Localisation : Paris

Hi,

When I re read my post above I must say that I probably misunderstood time for rhythm on some occasions.

When I say that Steve is playing with different time references, it is mainly rhythm or cycles.

I dont know if Time could be different in musical versus normal ?
Or maybe I misunderstood the question Laughing

Any answers Jen ?
_________________
www.stevecolemanarchives.com

Hi Dimitri!

I think: We can realize time only in relation to a process. Only when something happens (a process) we can realize the flow of time. In “musical time” and in “normal time” the process is very rhythmical. Therefore the rhythmic structure and “time” seem to be nearly the same.

As far as I know: The word “time” also means a feeling for rhythm – not for the structure of rhythms but for the flow of time which the rhythms make noticeable (for the speed of the flow of time).

Therefore there may be a difference between rhythm and time. But in Jen Shyu’s question I also understood “time” as a synonym for rhythm.
Therefore your post seems accurate to me.

Something more concrete:

This morning I watched Anga Diaz on his Video:
http://www.mimfilms.com/angamania2.html

Since I have seen him with the Steve Coleman Band I love his playing.
When he explains it on the video I see how masterly it is!!

In “normal time” the rhythm is very constant and mechanical. Therefore it can act as a “landmark, a cornerstone” (as Dimitri has said) and so it serves to organize life.

In contrast the feeling for rhythm and time is very flexible. Sometimes time seems to run fast. Sometimes it seems to creep. It depends on what is happening. (Maybe the years we win due to an increased life expectation we loose due to the speeding-up of modern life.)

Different rhythms can produce different impressions of the speed of time. In this way I can hear several layers of time in the same tune sometimes. For the first time I recognized that clearly in “Octagonal Dance Abstract” (CD: Alternate Dimension Series I, take 5) when I suddenly saw several carousels (each member of the rhythm-section) rotating in very different speeds in my imagination.

Another example: In “Egypt To Crypts In Hieroglyphs” (CD: Lucidarium, take 9) Kokayi (rap) seems to change the speed of time several times. But he only changes the rhythm. The same way time seems to speed up dramatically in „The Seal“ (CD: The Signe And The Seal).

The „free“ drummers came to my mind. For example Rashied Ali only with Leroy Jenkins on violin (CD: Swift Are The Winds Of Life).

I guess: The “free” drummers expressed the time-flow without using rhythmic patterns. They created non-rhythmical processes to deal with the time-flow in a more direct way. This kind of drumming is very interesting for me but not really satisfying because I love rhythms too much.

In Tyshawn Sorey’s drumming I hear that “free” tradition of dealing with the time-flow. But it is interwoven with very good rhythms. I like it very much. It is very strong in the “Fnac”-recording (2006). He produces streams of lava and Steve Coleman dances very near to the blaze like an aggressive mosquito … such pictures come to my mind when I think about things like time-flow and hear this music.

Joined : 03 Apr 2006 Posts : 276 Localisation : Paris

Joined : 11 Sep 2006 Posts : 137

Hello folks,

I read Jens proposed question and a few posts afterwards and then I stopped. I didn’t want to be influenced by what others might have written, so I will respond with my ideas of musical time. We all know what time is in terms of seconds, minutes and hours etc, for we all live by this structure. Musical time, however, this is something much more complicated.

First, musical time cannot come without the ability to hear and at least feel the vibrations of sound itself. There are many deaf groups throughout the world that operate on vibration and even visual direction by way of director.

Musical time, and I understand it as a drummer, is something quite miraculous, really. Now I don’t want to discuss any particular musician’s role by itself, because timing is easy when playing solo. The real miracle takes place when you have two or more musicians coming together as one entity, or one soul so-to-speak. How this happens in the “African Way Of Knowing” I don’t know, but I know that it happens.

The amazing thing about musical timing is that in some odd, or perhaps metaphysical way, two or more souls are connecting within the literal and exact same moment so as to create a complete and whole sound. We all know what disjointed sound sounds like. It’s wrong; it contains errors, thus we cannot have two souls connecting in the same moment. But music isn’t just about time, but it is about the expression of one’s experiences, emotions and how to implement these experiences and emotions into the form of sound. This could be called passion, or love. When we reach this level of musical understanding and connectivity, the result of the music makes the moment known.

I have many recordings where the magic does not exist. Though I do have some recordings of myself where the magic does exist, though none of us (me and my two brothers) would be considered professional artists. I was the only one of us that received lessons, yet we still were able to connect together on some metaphysical level so as to create an amazing sense of timing and perfection. To this day, I’m not sure exactly how we were able to connect if it were not on some metaphysical level, the connection of souls.

I realize that I am only touching the very skin of what Jen is talking about, for I know nothing comparatively. All I know is that when I hear Coleman, I hear a connection of minds, souls and bodies that are first able to conceive and understand all within the same moment of the music as it is being perceived and understood. Within microseconds, they are able to transform thought into physical movements to their instrument which produces the sound. The very best of musicians are able to work within structure, hear the other musicians around them, interpret their work and are all able to move into the same direction. This, my friends, is called genius work. It is music that transcends error and relies strictly upon inner freedom to allow yourself to be guided by the music and what you hear around you as it is taking place within the moment. It is hearing, reacting and responding as one.

Beethoven, Back and the rest are incredible, but each musician plays a particular role to create the whole and their parts must be played perfectly….exactly as told. So the miracle of Steve’s music is that structure is provided, but it is up to the hearts, minds and souls of each musician to come together as a whole, not as a part, and to improvise as one voice. Bach and Beethoven would be in awe of this form of music. For if they could have musicians that could come together and form music as Mr. Coleman has done and continues to do, they would be at his feet in awe. Beethoven and Bach didn’t allow for personal interpretation and expression. And this is the difference of musical time between the classics and Coleman (as I understand it).

Coleman reaches a new stage of time as he allows his musicians to follow their hearts within the constructs of his new theory, yet maintaining a constant in terms of time and structure. Ultimately, musical time comes from the soul and is transformed into audible sound. Musical time is simply transferred energy from mind to body, from body to sound.

If this is confusing….my apologies. I am not going to proof these writings. If clarification needs to take place, please post.

Humbly,

Free

Joined : 11 Sep 2006 Posts : 137

Joined : 11 Sep 2006 Posts : 137

[quote="Manfred"]Different rhythms can produce different impressions of the speed of time. In this way I can hear several layers of time in the same tune sometimes. For the first time I recognized that clearly in “Octagonal Dance Abstract” (CD: Alternate Dimension Series I, take 5) when I suddenly saw several carousels (each member of the rhythm-section) rotating in very different speeds in my imagination.quote]

Manfred, are you saying you feel like there are members playing different time signatures? For example, a drummer might play five measures of 4/4 while a bassist might play four measures of 5/4? Both the drummer and bassist would come back together, meeting at a point after 20 quarter notes. Is this what you mean? I've often wanted play around with programming to see what the possible sounds might be within this musical construct.

Thanks!

I have no musical knowledge and so I can’t find out the time signatures.
I think: Every polyrhythm is kind of that. But in “Octagonal Dance Abstract” the instruments seemed to be really far from each other – also in quite different tempos. But on a higher level they are perfectly together. So I had this picture of connected carousels. – On the DVD “Elements Of One” Sean Rickman describes the rhythms with the picture of a clock with several wheels turning in different ways. I think this picture means the same. – This great polyrhythm expands my brain, makes a bit high like too much oxygen in the blood … I often have this feeling with Coleman’s music. Firstly it is often a bit unpleasing. But when I get going it’s fascinating and with great pleasure.