"normal" time vs. "musical" time

oh yeah absolutly ! playing in several time signatures at the same time has become one of Steve's music distinctive point. I think you can hear it very well in "polymad nomad" in " the Tao of Mad phat" ( I read an interview from Roy Hargrove about how difficult it was to play in several time signatures).
And ultimately this is related to some esoteric ideas...in motion.
CM

Joined : 11 Sep 2006 Posts : 137

Manfred,

You are really testing me in what I feel in my spirit regarding Coleman. You are a great, great man!

Here are my thoughts (please forgive me if I have neglected anything):

Manfred,

Peace to you, sir.

As a drummer, polyrhythms deviate from one time signature to another, but they always meet back together at some point. For example, one polyrhythm that I am able to do on the drum or with my hands is to strike my right hand 5 times within the exact same amount of time that I strike my left hand four times. I could also tap my left foot three times within the same amount of time that it takes my right hand to tap five times. Thus, we have polyrhythms, but each rhythm must connect back at the count of “one”. The leading count, in this case, would be 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and each beat would start with one until we reached five, where the right hand would tap five times, the left hand would tap four times and the left foot would only tap three times. Now, it’s not this simple, for each beat would need to be played with perfect space between each note. Of course, within the constructs of musical time, we can do whatever we want. Anything that can be imagined can be done, but the question must be asked, “Is it musical?”

A very good and good example of polyrhythm is The X-Format as played by Smitty Smith. Listen to the first part of the track. He is incredibly polyrhythmic. Listen to his left foot on the hi-hat. If I remember correctly, he plays a triplet format with his left foot, clicking the hi-hats in a 1 2 3 pattern, but he also shifts between the whole note and the off note. So perfect space between notes is not an absolute. Music is whatever you want it to become and a person can do with it as they so please, but it takes talent to do so.

I think I mentioned earlier that The X-Format was in thirteen/eight time. It’s actually in thirteen/sixteen time.

“But in “Octagonal Dance Abstract” the instruments seemed to be really far from each other – also in quite different tempos. But on a higher level they are perfectly together.”

For anything to be perfectly together, it must be in agreement with each other. Things within itself can be perfect, but things outside of itself are only disjointed and imperfect, thus you have two complete different things. Imagine listening to Gershwin and Bach at the same time. You simply cannot have two different tempos, two different notational values and two different time signatures that would constitute something that we call music. Music is a language. Imagine the communication between an English speaking person and a Japanese speaking person….it won’t and cannot work. Communication will be limited and disjointed. Music is the same way….two or more people must have the same understanding of the direction that they are about to enter to create a communication between guitar and bass. When you add even more instruments, it becomes even more critical to have the same level of communication.

In The Tao Of Mad Phat, we literally see the creation of spontaneous music. Steve plays the part for each musician. He calls out “B – 1 – 7”, whatever that is. He sings the part for the piano. He then sings the part for the drums, emphasizing the hi-hat phrasing for Mr. Lake. Once he creates the groove, they are off and running and Steve begins his improvisational groove. But here’s the point. They are all playing different grooves and in different ways, but they all meet back at the same point. This particular groove is in a funky 4/4 grove, but the fact is simple, Steve wanted them to all play their own particular grooves within the constructs of 4/4.

Within all things, there must be a certain amount of continuity. Without continuity, there is only chaos. Chaos brings no peace while structure brings freedom and a love for “something”, whatever that is for you.

Hi Scott!

Thank you very much for all your very interesting words. To write in English is a hard work for me. So my posts are as short as possible. Please imagine that I appreciate all your interesting words even if I don’t say it. When I say something contradicting it’s always meant as an additional thought – ever with respect and friendliness! I can’t express it in every post like you do so nice. Please imagine it!

I have said:
>>> But in ‘Octagonal Dance Abstract’ the instruments seemed to be really far from each other – also in quite different tempos. But on a higher level they are perfectly together. So I had this picture of connected carousels. <<<

I meant it exactly in the way you have described so wonderfully.

For me a good example is the last track of “Black Science” (the reprise of Black Phonemics) because I can hear firstly only the drums and then only the drums with the bass. It’s unbelievable that a human being is able to play such a complex rhythm like Smitty Smith did. And it’s unbelievable that somebody can improvise about such rhythms in such an agile and freewheeling way like Steve Coleman did.

This is very, very great. But it is also a bit problematical: It is like someone who is speaking so fast and with so complex sentences that nearly nobody can follow him. - On the other hand: The music on CD “Black Science” has a sort of dance-feeling – even though it is so complex. Nevertheless, it is too much for my brain and I’m always a bit displeased with my ability to follow music – though I often enjoy to listen to that music.

In this aspect it seems to me that there is a development in Coleman’s music: His speech became very clear, vivid and expressive - for example on CD “Resistance Is Futile”. Do you see any loss?

Generally, I often think: Coleman is searching, studying, and developing since many years. What is the development in his sax-playing? What is the development in his whole music?

Many like his early music most. What is not so good in his later music? – I often think about these things.

Joined : 11 Sep 2006 Posts : 137

Manfred,

Black Science is one of my favorite CDs of Coleman, along with Rhythm People and Rhythm in Mind.

“But it is also a bit problematical: It is like someone who is speaking so fast and with so complex sentences that nearly nobody can follow him.”

Dear sir, keep listening! Yes, this music is incredibly fast, and even when it is slow, such as Ghost Town, it still seems fact because we are trying to figure out the notations of the music. If I recall, Ghost Town is in 5/4 (five quarter notes per measure). But I urge all of you to just keep listening and learning each part of the music. Count it out; count out each part and try to understand the music in mathematical terms. And this is what is so frustrating for me. If I could be there with you all, to show you how to count out the music, I think you would all love it that much more because you would see the mathematical equations that are ever so obvious! When you see the music in a mathematical equation, you no longer see it as simply music, but as a picture of emotions that come from a small group of people. I’ve actually experienced moments in my life where Coleman’s music takes on literal color patterns and even literal shape. It’s only happened a few times, but it makes me wonder if geniuses see music in this way on a more regular basis.

“In this aspect it seems to me that there is a development in Coleman’s music: His speech became very clear, vivid and expressive - for example on CD “Resistance Is Futile”. Do you see any loss?”

I’m sorry friend….I don’t have that CD (I hang my head in shame, but I cannot afford any new CDs with my income being the way that it is).

“What is the development in his sax-playing?”

I couldn’t say for sure, but it seems to me that he is more trying to emulate truth in his music than simply creating beautiful music. Its almost as if he’s trying to represent the metaphysical element of earth/life/existence. Steve is the same man but is just doing something different from what he’s done before.

“Many like his early music most. What is not so good in his later music? – I often think about these things.”

If we were to ask Steve this question, who knows what he would say. But I do believe that he is complimented on all of his music from different types of people. Therefore, we can only be left with the conclusion that if we as individual people don’t like what he’s doing, then it becomes a matter of personal taste. I don’t think that Steve is bored; rather, he’s always trying something new.

Now, if you ask me directly what the difference is, I’d say that in his later music we’ve don’t hear anything like Turbulence and the drum solo of Smitty. Flint and Pad Thai are amazing. Contemplation is pure soul! Simbuis puts us on the edge of our seats and makes us want more….so good! Terra Nova has an amazing theme! Tschanze is probably too long, but it has incredible rhythm. Afterthoughts is pure beauty. Pass It On is sheer happiness! Sweet Dawn is fantastic the improved piano (one of my top ten favorites). Ain’t Goin’ Out Like That is built upon pure testosterone. Neutral Zone contains the most amazing theme I’ve ever heard in music!!!!!!! Fire Theme is short, sweet and super funky. Mad Monkey is pure funk. Perpetuate the Funk features DK Dyson and her amazing power, not to mention the early Smitty Smith and his power drumming. One Bright Morning contains an amazing set of percussive ideas by Smitty….one of the best from Smitty (he’s able to play within the structure of the song). Wild is another excellent example of Smitty’s shocking ability to play both percussion and drum at the same time (no one like Smitty!)

As I said before, I don’t have the last four releases, so its hard for me to tell what the difference is, though I have feelings of optimism. I must admit that I don’t listen to his later music because it is way to serious, or perhaps dark and I just don’t get it. The music doesn’t have that clear theme like in previous years. However, I think it was you, Manfred, that said that you loved his music even more after you came to know and understand it a bit more…I’m sure I’ll feel the same way.

One thing that I don’t like is having four to 8 horns all playing at the same time, but not together. I can’t stand that. In fact, that’s the one thing that I don’t like about Pass It On…there are too many horns all playing at the same time during moments of the track. But the these is incredible in its uplifting beat and tone.

Well, I’ll leave it at this. I could probably write about book about this, and there’s no need to that.

Those are great questions that make us think, Manfred. It took me four or five days to write a response (I’ve been busy, too, so that made it a bit harder.

Take care, friend!