newcomer

Joined : 03 Apr 2006 Posts : 278 Localisation : Paris

Hello guys,

After your talks Ill need to look after my Pygmes music collection Wink

I have a few CD's, mainly on Ocora Label if my memory serves me right, which are absolutly fantastic.
I may have a few LP's too from the 50's with pygme recordings, will look at it too.

My educationnal course was in Ethno-musicology in Paris X Nanterre.
But I never finish my thesis and I had to go working. But I still feel very close to ethnology.

Good afternoon,

Dimitri.
_________________
www.stevecolemanarchives.com

Joined : 31 May 2006 Posts : 15

Hi!

>>I found an article of a French musicologist who studied<<
You must speak about Simha Arom... I know him a little, I participated to some seminaries he was leading... Very interesting person.

>>(In Jazz Leon Thomas was yodelling and (as far as I know) he was inspired by the pygmies. I like his singing too.).<<
Yes, Leon Thomas singing is great...

>>Your PhD thesis: What is it all about?<<
It was an ethnolinguistic study about the conception of music in Kwakum society (a bantu ethnic group of eastern Cameroon). There was four main parts : instruments (construction, technical playing, lexical terms used...), songs (categories, lyrics...), performances (why, when and how they play music) and a special part about funerals, as it's the main occasion for them to play music. I also made a special part about the description of Kwakum language. All the analysis were based on some recordings in Kwakum language. It was very interesting... but I'm happy that it finally finished... I spent 5 years on this (I'm 29 now).... at university paris 7 and in collaboration with CNRS.

What I especially like in "ethnic" music is that it's integrated in society... they play music because they NEED (for curing illnesses, for welcoming babies, for helping the souls of the deads to make a good travel...), not only because they want to "have fun"... it's going much farther that the western artistic notion...
When I discovered Ethnic music, it was like I was discovering an entire universe, where occidental music was finally only a little part of it (even if western music is so large that a whole life spent to listen to it wouldn't be enough to discover all...).

OCORA label is one of the best I know... I have plenty of them, but not only on African music... I also fell in love with asian music... especially chinese and vietnamese... (music from Myanmar, indonesia are less "accessible" in my opinion... my western ears still need some "training"). One fantastic thing is also diphonic singing from central asia and Tibet...
ALALA! when I begin to speak about this, I can't stop! But I have to go... mountain is waiting for me!

Have a nice week-end!
La revedere! ("goodbye", in romanian)

Francesco

PS: it's funny how we discover more and more affinities, as long as we speak... ethnomusicology for example! GOOD!

Another eastern European composer that I like is Arvo Part. Anybody's have ever listened to Part's string trio "Tabula Rasa". I like Ligeti but I really love Part.

Also Francesco, do you hear some african music rythmic elements in SC music ? I guess you will say of course, but can you give us some example with one composition ?

Thanks
CM

>> You must speak about Simha Arom <<

Yes! Exactly!

Last year I read two books about African music (Joseph H. Kwabena Nketia and Monique Brandly). It was very interesting but even though I listened to CDs I think it is necessary to have more knowledge and to experience it more directly. It’s great what you did!

Social function of music:
I think even the European classical music had an important social function. On the one hand it was entertainment for the bored nobility (“to have fun”). On the other hand it was religious or highly inspired in another way and so it had a great importance for the identity and cultivation. But there was a strict division between the musicians and the only listening audience. More and more the concert music became abstract.

Also in Europe there was and still is “ethnic” music, folk music. For example: Where I come from the people had their own wedding music, songs about leaving the mountain pastures in fall, songs they sang when knitting in winter etc.. – Another example: the old wedding music of the gypsies in Romania which got international fame in the last years and sounds jazzy (brass band: Fanfare Ciocarlia)
http://www.fanfare-ciocarlia.com/

I think we can’t exactly divide “ethnic” music form “western” music. Both terms are very problematic. Nevertheless I can understand well what you Francesco expressed …
… and I think you Charles are right too!

>> my western ears still need some "training" <<

That’s a problem for me: Even if I train I never can hear foreign kinds of music in the way the foreign people hear it. I always get stuck on an exotic flair. Even with Jazz I needed many years to get a feeling for differences. I’m disappointed about the ability to change my habit how I experience music. Therefore I finally have accepted that “Free Jazz” never will sound fine to me and that I can’t enjoy Ligeti’s music.

Thank you Charles for the very interesting hint to “Triplcate”. When I listen to “African Lullaby” I think I really can hear the pygmies yodelling! Nice! I always have liked “Segment” and especially Coleman’s kind of playing on “Blue”: After all the hot and crying saxophones of the “free” sector he was sooo cool.

Joined : 31 May 2006 Posts : 15

Ok. Welcome Charles.

About the social function of music: you are both right. I apologize, I spoke too quickly! I should have spoken about MODERN western music. Thanks for correcting me. And even now some western music has a social function, but it's not so integrated in the whole society as it can be in Africa or India, for example.
True also that the distinction between ethnic and western music is not effective... that's why I had put "...". Let's speak only about "Music", and not categorize too much!

I know Triplicate album and "african Lullaby"... beautiful! I also know Fanfare Ciocarlia... I've got a special "coup de coeur" for romanian music, as Romania is my "adoptive" country!
But I don't know Ligeti and Part... thanks for the references, I would check this!

About african rythmic influence in Coleman's music... the first example that comes in my mind (the more "evident") is the polyrythmic drums of Afrocuba de Matanzas on the album "the sign and the seal". But in fact... your question is quite difficult... there are so many different african musics... we can find afro elements in a lot of things... For me, polyrythmic patterns and asymmetric beats are the most "african-like" elements... but for sure these elements are not specifically african.
Anyway... I'm not an "expert"... I was a linguist, at the beginning! I hope answered your question...

If somebody is interested, I could send him few recordings of Kwakum music I made on the field... But the quality is not so so good...

(to Manfred) my week-end in Carpaths was so nice... Real nature... the only human beings we saw was shepperds! And we also been to some "muddy volcanos" near the town of Buzau... strange geological phenomenom... Hope you had (or would have) good times too!

TCHAW!

Francesco

Joined : 03 Apr 2006 Posts : 278 Localisation : Paris

Francesco,

I think we al understood that you were talking about MODERN western music, at least that's how I've read it.

I would like to hear your field recording, I dont care too much about audio quality as long as I can hear something Laughing

I couldnt find my pygmees recordings, they might be somewhere in the flat in some kind of secret places Wink

I think Triplicate is one of the few Steve's recording that I dont have, some friend borrow it a year or 2 ago and I forgot to get it back. I'd better buy a new one now.
That's funnny cause I dont really remember that song, Im very curious to hear that one.

About African music influences in Steve's music, well it could be heard almost everywhere.
The album DEF TRANCE BEATS is the one that comes to my mind.
It was more evident earlier, or I would say that it is so well integrated in his music now that yu almost cant notice it now.

"Ritual" in the last album is deeply african rooted i think.

On a side note, Steve once told a journalist when I was with him :
The sax introduction to Rhythm people comes from an african children chant.
_________________
www.stevecolemanarchives.com

Joined : 31 May 2006 Posts : 15

Dimitri

OK for the Kwakum recordings... give me your Email!
Unfortunately I dont' have Weaving Symbolics... Is it possible to download it somewhere, or do I have to buy it?

Have a nice day!

Francesco

>> … Real nature … <<

Great! Why is it so strong? Maybe because it is the original environment of human beings and so our feeling is deeply connected with it. Maybe because my father took me to nature when I was a child and so old deep feeling is connected with nature … ?? It just is so!

I had a really nice weekend too but mostly in the “cave” of our flat … with my wife … And my younger son (18 years old) visited us and brought a computer game which we played together: Fighting against horrible enemies deep down in a planet … like heroes in a fairy tale. Formerly I often enjoyed to play such games with my sons – good shared experiences!

I think: Many people leave old societies to live a modern “western” life where we are almost only employees and consumers – often isolated and lonesome. I don’t want to live in a very close society where I couldn’t go home after having done my work every day – and where I couldn’t live with my wife as we want. But I also have a yearning for a strong community which is so impressively represented by the collective chant of the pygmies (or by the collective making music of other folks). - This morning I listened to a CD of “Los Munequitos de Matanzas”, another Afro-Cuban ensemble like “Afro-Cuba de Matanzas”. I like this music (with it’s strong collective character) much. (A German Jazz publicist (J.E.Berendt) wrote: Latin music often is African music played in a way we Europeans can better understand.)

After reading the above mentioned books about African music I had a long discussion about African music with a musician in a German Jazz forum. I learned in that discussion: There are many often very different musical styles in Africa and there are no clear criteria to distinguish African music from any other music. Nevertheless there are some specific characteristics. - Is that right?

Maybe one characteristic:
I often have wondered why most people in Europe don’t really like Jazz. Once hearing Ornette Coleman’s “Ramblin’”
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000002IIL/sr=8-2/qid=1150805124/ref=sr_1_2/102-4695168-7835346?%5Fencoding=UTF8
I thought: This theme is as natural as a folk song. I asked my father if he likes this music. He said: No! Why not? He: The music begins, then it suddenly stops, later it goes on … crazy.
Actually the music doesn’t stop, go on etc. because there is the continuous stream of the rhythm section. This stream is the basis. It bears all other elements. Melodies and harmonies can drift upon that stream rather freely. But on the other hand they are highly related to the rhythmic stream. Often there are breaks in melody lines to bring the rhythm to the foreground. The stream can go on as long as the musicians want.

I guess that this rhythmic stream in Jazz is very African. In Jazz the stream is mostly produced by the beat, in African music more by patterns – as far as I know. From my point of view there is no such stream in European music – neither in classical music nor in folk music. Here every song and every composition seems to consist primarily in melodic and harmonic structures which make the music ongoing. Rhythm is an aspect of these structures but there is no separate basic rhythmic stream.

Is there any truth in these thoughts???????

>> On a side note, Steve once told a journalist when I was with him :
The sax introduction to Rhythm people comes from an african children chant. <<

These little “stories” are very interesting for me (also the singing of the Five Elements etc.). Thanks!

pig

Joined : 31 May 2006 Posts : 15

Hi Manfred

Why nature is so strong? There are, I think, a lot of reasons... The ones you gave are interesting. For me Nature is strong especially because alone (or in little groups) in nature I can find and feel myself, without interactions with people which, in a way, are an obstacle to introspection. I feel the need to ressource myself, to know really who I am...
On the other hand, I like to live in community (as I lived in african villages). But these too aspects are not excluding each other... there's always a place to be alone...

>>Many people leave old societies to live a modern “western” life where we are almost only employees and consumers – often isolated and lonesome.<<
I tried to explain to some african friends why I wanted to "escape" in a way from western consumerist society, to live in a more spiritual-minded place... But it's hard for them to understand how I could like to escape material abundance... when they fight everyday (more or less, depending on the place) for food...

>> There are many often very different musical styles in Africa and there are no clear criteria to distinguish African music from any other music. Nevertheless there are some specific characteristics. - Is that right?<<
There are as many different music as there are different ethnic groups and languages (even if some are related). And each ethnic group got several categories of music, which can be very different one from each other... I let you imagine the diversity!
As far as I know, the only criteria we could find to distinguish african music from other music would be some instruments, which are found only there... sanza, for exemple (also called "Mbira", or "lammellophone", in french). There are some characteristics (polyphony/polyrythmy...) but they are not specifically african, and not all african music have these characteristics.

>> continuous stream of the rhythm section. This stream is the basis. It bears all other elements. Melodies and harmonies can drift upon that stream rather freely.<<
I think you're right in a way. I can give only the exemple of kwakum music : they used to play "melodic" instruments (harps...), which are almost abandoned now. I think it's because they are not "essential", in their conception of music. Now they play especially "rythmic" instruments (a formation of 3 drums)... But we can't generalize, as there are some african music which are not measured... which have no "beats" or "patterns"...
[I would go farther : for Kwakun, the most important is the MESSAGE they deliver when they sing, the MEANING of the lyrics. That's why they are not obliged to play these 3 drums to produce music. Singing meaningful lyrics is already "playing music", for them (even if there's no equivalent word in kwakum for english or french "music"!).}
Finally... this separation between "melodic/harmonic" elements and "rythmic" elements is not accurate... They are linked : there's rythm in singing or playing a melodic instruments, and there can be melody in rythmic instruments. The balafon, marimba or piano are, in this regard, meaningful... they are rythmic and melodic in the same time... And I don't speak about Javanese gamelan, which is also a good exemple.
ok. I have to go.

Enjoy Coleman's (both, Steve and Ornette, which I also love) music
PA! ("ciao" in romanian)
Franceco

Today I had to be in a session of an institution where businessmen talked about how to prevent people from poorer countries to get medical help although they can’t pay a contribution to the health insurance company. The businessmen had no thought about the fact that the European Union opened the borders to “poorer” countries because this is just in the businessmen’s interest! Because they get cheap workers, they can beat down the wages of all workers and they get good deals in those countries. My job was to say nothing and to be friendly all the same. – On my way back to my office an idiotic car-driver has nearly killed me on the zebra crossing. - In my office I constantly had to hear some helicopters flying above the city because Mister Georg W. Bush was so nice to visit Vienna …

… A huge amount of such things waste my energy and my motivation every day …

… I can understand well that you “escaped”!

---------------

Recently I read a book entitled “Music, the Brain, and Ecstasy: How Music Captures Our Imagination” by Robert Jourdain. The book was very interesting for me but the author seems only to understand European classical music. Several times he describes European classical music as great ARCHITECTURE. The European composers were masters of the “great form”. To recognize the greatness of this music we must remember their structures for a relative long time. Often melodies repeat a motive several minutes later. Harmonies are developed in a long time span. I think this music is great in stepping out of time, in creating architecture. Every detail, every tone of every instrument in large orchestras are consciously designed. The compositions are like cathedrals – something rather static.

In contrast I regard Jazz as very devoted to the flow of time. It happens in the moment, in the actual acting of the musicians. Recently I talked with a woman who has a good understanding for European classical music. She said she regards Jazz mostly as boring constant tootling – because she has an “architectural” view, so I think. To like Jazz I primarily need a feeling (a “love”) for that “rhythmic stream”. In this aspect Jazz seems to be very similar to that Afro-Cuban music we can see on the “Elements Of One”-DVD: the complex rhythms are going on and they sing some chants and do some dances.

For example Steve Coleman’s Creteil-concert-recording: I like the strong rhythm section. Coleman said about the Brazilian percussionists in the cover-text of the “Weaving”-CD: They are “by no means typical of what is found in Brazil – their rhythms transcend stereotype”. I think Coleman’s music too is so much his own that it is hard to find African or other stereotypes. It’s no “world music”. But the way HOW it works seems to be rather “African” to me. Sean Rickman explained on “Elements Of One”: The rhythms are like several wheels turning in different ways:
“polyrythmic patterns and asymmetric beats” as you Francesco said.
I like how the melody-instruments participate in the rhythms of the creteil-music – their “riffs” etc.

>> Finally... this separation between "melodic/harmonic" elements and "rythmic" elements is not accurate... <<

I know my thoughts are absolutely not exact. But I can’t express them better than with these pictures of “stream” versus “architecture”. I like much the feeling of this flow connected with a feeling of body motion.
Body Motion!

Ciao
Manfred
cat

Joined : 31 May 2006 Posts : 15

Hi!

Sorry... I been far of the computer for few days... I search a job!

I plan to go to a jazz festival in Garana (Romania, july 13 to 16)), and Jean-Luc Ponty would be there... Could anyone advice me about his major works?

Thanks!

Francesco

Hi Franceso!

>> Jean-Luc Ponty <<

I guess you know the „all music guide“:

http://www.allmusic.com

with a discography with possibilities to listen to.

More I don’t know.

Manfred

Joined : 31 May 2006 Posts : 15

Yes, I know Allmusic... but sometimes I don't "trust" them... (they put only 2 stars to the "way of the cipher"!!!).
Thanks anyway!
BYE!
Francesco

Yes, I know: Allmusic’s rating of Steve Coleman’s CDs is disastrous. But I think Jean-Luc Pointy is not so exciting. So Allmusic may better hit the mark. More than that rating I like the possibilities to listen to. So I can get own impressions.

Sometimes I read really horrible descriptions of Steve Coleman’s CDs even from musically well-trained writers. It seems that even Jazz-education don’t ensure a feeling for his music. Some nervous systems seem to be open for this music - many others don’t have a resonance. The reason for that seems to be mysterious.