Black Genghis

Joined : 11 Sep 2006 Posts : 137

Black Genghis was a special moment in music on several different levels.

Lake was amazing, but which rapper was it that began rapping at the 4:37 mark of the song? He's the guy that emulates the bass, sax and drums.

His rhythm and syncopation is as fine as anything that we've ever heard from anyone in Coleman's music.

"Just like the drums pdd pow pow t t pow pow om pow"

Who is that? All I know is that it isn't "Black Indian". That guy is one of the finest vocalists I've ever heard in terms of understanding rhythm and how to improvise within the constructs of musical time. Its the same guy that leads the rap on Fast Lane (The Way Of The Cipher). His timing is incredible, espeically within the constructs of improvisation. It seems to me that he fits within the realm of Coleman's thinking very well. I'd like to see him with more of Coleman, not because I like rap, but because I like rhythm and the ability to flow and create within microseconds of the moment.

Who is that guy?

Joined : 03 Apr 2006 Posts : 276 Localisation : Paris

Kokayi I guess, will check the recording later to be sure.
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www.stevecolemanarchives.com

What do you guys think of Steve's ( and Greg Osby for that matter) attempt to integrate rap into his music in general?

Frankly this is probably the part I like the least. And not because I don't like rap in general. Well I like it less and less. But I used to listen to a lot of rap at one point. But I do not think that rap mixes well with Steve's music, particularly the more recent one.

May be a Tale of 3 cities was not so bad , but as a rap album it does not really stand out.

In many cases on the latest albums, you will have nice intricate groove, and then when Kokayi comes in he just spoils it. The main reason behind that is that he is improvising (I guess it's called freestyle rap), and since the words are not thought through, they end up being very basic or almost silly. It's funny, when I was leaving in France and was speaking very little english, and like rap a little more.

After leaving here in the US for a little while, now I can understand a little bit more the lyrics. And most of the time these are really way too simple ideas these rappers express. And I think there is a mismatch between the complexity of Steve's music and the very basic ideas of the rappers he is using.

I am pretty sure many people will not agree.

CM.

Joined : 20 Apr 2006 Posts : 57 Localisation : Rome

You' be surprised but I totally agree. More, the thing I don't like of 'Tale of three cities' is that dull and muddy over-bass sound

Joined : 11 Sep 2006 Posts : 137

Hello Charles and Zer,

The rap in Steve’s music isn’t entirely new, as we here in Dangerous and No Conscience from the Rhythm People CD. There is no doubt, though, that this is a completely different style.

As far as Greg Osby goes, I’ve never had a negative thought about him until I purchased two of his solo CDs….I was heavily disappointed.

I can understand why some of you would find distaste in the rap connection to Coleman’s music. I would suggest, though, that he was trying to add the same kind of freestyle element that he as his musicians have, but with vocals. I’d say it was both successful and a failure. Black Indian was slow in his response to the music and would often become lost, but believe me, from my percussive view of notational values, Kokayi was incredible. With his voice, he is much like Coleman. Kokayi is confident with his verbal phrasing and his rhythm. If anything, I’d ask you both to listen to Kokayi and I think that you’d be amazed. You don’t have to know what he’s saying, just listen to his voice as though another instrument that cleverly intertwines himself with the rest of the band members. He’s good, and I mean very, very good.

Again, within Black Ghengis we hear Kokayi completely emulate Coleman with rhythm and pitch. Kokayi is able to change pace yet come back to the correct tempo with perfection. He doesn’t just rap, but he raps within the key being played. With Kokayi, you’re not listening to rap, you’re listening to music, true music. In fact, you’re listening to a solo. Notice how the musicians limit what they’re playing. They’re all sitting back and letting Kokayi solo his voice. Gentlemen, this is truly a fine, very fine moment in live music!!!

I really don’t like A Tale Of Three Cities, but there is a hidden gem in this mix of music. At the 6 minute and 10 second mark of Be Bob, listen to what Gene Lake does on the drums. He masterfully creates his own melody line with how he uses the snare and bass drum. He cleverly and masterfully uses the snare rim in two different ways in conjunction with the snare head and bass drum. Listen to it….if you’ve missed it, I think you’ll be impressed.

“In many cases on the latest albums, you will have nice intricate groove, and then when Kokayi comes in he just spoils it.”

You might be right, I may have the wrong name of the rapper that I’m thinking of. But I promise you this, one of the three rappers is truly exceptional and I believe that he emulates what Coleman wanted at the time. One of the three rappers is a joy to listen to. The others don’t quite have what the one has. I think its even Black Indian that talks about “materbating to my lyrics”. Sorry to write that. I just can’t even understand why anyone would ever say something like that, so I’m sorry that these lyrics are connected with Coleman. Yes, some of the lyrics are silly and juvenile, but if Dim is correct, Kokayi is masterful, doesn’t get lost and knows what he’s saying.

If I had my choice, Smitty would be back with the band making what I believe was Coleman’s best music (according to my ears and musical preference).

Peace and happiness to you all!

Mostly I don’t like Rap. I don’t understand the words and I’m not interested in words in music. I miss melody.

But I think: What Scott has said about Kokayi is exactly right.

I think: It is really great what Kokayi did with the rhythm in “The Seal” (CD: The Signe And The Seal) and in “Egypt To Crypts In Hieroglyphs” (CD: Lucidarium). I also like his Rap in “Plagal Transitions“ (Lucidarium): it sounds like Scat!

On DVD “Elements Of One” Kokayi speaks in his Rap to the Cubans – talking about the cap, the eyeglasses and giving a kiss on the hand … you know? – This is wonderful communication. I enjoy it.

Joined : 11 Sep 2006 Posts : 137

Manfred,

I'm with you. I HATE rap....can't stand it as it serves no purpose for me. I was so disappointed when Coleman release the Tale of Three Cities CD. I just couldn't believe it.

Anyway, I'll listen to those tracks you mentioned. I don't remember how the tracks went.

Thanks!

Joined : 11 Sep 2006 Posts : 137

“I like the way you listen in a very detailed fashion.”

Hey, you know one of the coolest things about Coleman is that if you listen closely, you’ll hear things you’ve never heard before. Coleman is so, so rich!!

About Kokayi, I’m glad that you’ll give him another chance. I’m only suggesting that you listen to him in Black Ghengis. If you don’t have it, I’ll send it to you, of I suppose you could always download it from the SC site. He is so incredible. In fact, he’s probably much better at what he does that I what I do as a drummer. He has incredible confidence. He doesn’t get lost like Black Indian. Kokayi is the difference between those that are afraid of being recorded and audiences and those that aren’t. He’s very, very good and in fact, I’ve never heard a rapper with a better sense of timing and rhythm….he’s awesome. But I still hate rap! Hehehe

Ok, well, the two below selections of Osby are available through the library. I’m on the total budget, so this is all I can do for now. We’ll talk more later though:

“Greg Osby and Sound Theatre”

“Symbols of light”

Eric Harland isn’t on either of these two CDs. Do you know of a site or a way that I can hear his best work? If so, let me know….that’d be awesome!

I can’t believe it, but I was actually able to order Every Day by Cinematic Orchestra. That’s amazing!!! Be sure to get back to me about that. I’ll probably forget which thread your suggestion came from. Ghost Town is amazing, by the way. The music is very hypnotic.

I agree with you about the vocals in Coleman’s music, especially the rap. Although, I really liked DK Dyson years ago….she was young and quite powerful, especially in Perpetuate The Funk. Wow!!! Of course, Cassandra Wilson was lovely in One Bright Morning. But I really do believe that if Coleman could have always featured with Kokayi on vocals we would have really heard something incredible. And of course we can’t forget the first rap with Dangerous and No Conscience…No Conscience was amazing!!!!!

I’m hanging my head low in shame, but I haven’t heard Jen except through the video that I downloaded. It sounds like she’s a very talented person, but its hard to tell through the video.

I haven’t heard Rosangela Sylvestre either. You guys have more money than I do, but that’s changing. Picked up a second job today and will be working a lot. In fact, I may not be appearing here at the site as much as I have been, but we’ll see.

Sir Charles, keep in touch regarding that Every Day CD. I wish I could give you some feedback on Eric Harland…I love it when people recommend drummers to me. Seems like I always get something new and cool. Dang, just need more money.

Peace! Very Happy

>>> I think the voices are really the weak point in Steve's music. Same thing with Jen … superfluous to the music. <<<

I completely DISAGREE!

I love the singing of Jen Shyu. Just yesterday I listened to one of my favourite recordings: the Bari concert (25/07/04 Bari, Italy). Circa 55 minutes and 30 seconds after the start: “Figit Time” and “Ballad” (Mist and Counterpoise):

I think: Jen Shyu gives a very vividly understanding of the emotionality of this music. I love her wonderful sounds, the melodic motions, the combination of highly developed artistry of singing and a stirring naturalness. She has an impressive shout in her sound. Also with her gestures and elegant motions she communicates the music. When she sings "... so beautiful" in front of the accompanying sounds of the wind instruments in "Figit Time" it expresses my feeling about this music so accurately that I am deeply moved. Also the following ballad is pure joy to me.

This music is not only complex and intelligent but it has also a very strong communicative power. Coleman’s Solo: He needn’t to prove his abilities now. He is free … free to dance … I love how his solo is growing and growing. – I always thought: Dafnies Prieto can’t substitute Sean Rickman. But this rhythm section sounds so naturally and strong and it supports the melody-instruments so well.

I also like the following “9 to 5” ……………..

I don’t hate Rap! I mostly don’t like it but I like Kokayi.
http://www.m-base.com/Kokayi.html
Here he says: "Too many heads in hip-hop are clinging to the banks of the river, fearful of letting go and going with the flow" says Kokayi. "It's now time for the true hip-hop head to simply let go, trust the river to take them to what's next with the most important destination -- to be yourself."

Greg Osby:
A lot of mp3s:
http://www.gregosby.com/mp3.html
Notice: Left above you see: “mp3s: A | B“ – So you have 2 sides (A and B)!!!

[quote="Freewheelin'
About Kokayi, I’m glad that you’ll give him another chance. I’m only suggesting that you listen to him in Black Ghengis. If you don’t have it, I’ll send it to you, of I suppose you could always download it from the SC site. Very Happy

[/quote]

Yeah. If you could send me the track where Gene Lake is so impressive(The tales of 3 cities is not on the mp3 site). The kokayi thing I'm not really interested. Since I usually listen to all of SC track with Kokayi, since even bad rap is not enough to discourage me from listening to that music, I have listened a lot to Kokayi already.

Imagine now that Kokayi instead of raping was actually 'drumming' with is voice , you know just doing "poom tah tah poom" etc but following all the rigor of the musical theory behind it. Like doing exactly what Smitty will do but with the voice, that will be impressive right ? but still that will not be very interesting. That's the way I feel about Kokayi and Jen. In other words:
1) in the battle of "voice that sings like an instrument" versus "actual instument", voice always loose.
2) the only way singing voice can win is through the use of powerful words. And that's where poetry can help since it is essentially the skilfull use of words.
And that's why scatting Betty Carter is less interesting that poetic Abbey Lincoln (have you guys listened to SC with Abbey Lincoln ?)
CM

The following has come to my mind and maybe it is interesting for somebody:

Circa 2001 there was a Symposium on the question “Is Jazz black music?”. Steve Coleman was one of the panelists.
Here is a transcript:
http://www.jazztimes.com/columns_and_features/web_exclusive/jazz_and_race/race_jazz1.cfm

I agree!