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CharlesM
Joined : 07 Jun 2006
Posts : 100
Localisation : Maryland (USA)
|  Subject: Re: Black Genghis  Mon 25 Sep ŕ 1:20 | |
| | Manfred wrote: |
How to disprove it?
I think that it is not enough to say: Jazz is swing and blues (like Wynton Marsalis & Co. say). So I have to think about the “African sensibility” or however you call it …
Manfred
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Well there is no contradiction here. It is possible that 1) most of the early jazz contributors are of african descent (and therefore most of jazz from bebop to free jazz must have an african sensibility to it. That's just logical) , 2) the most important modern jazz contributors are not of african descent. Both statements can be true at the same time. Now John Zorn ? That's really far fetched.
Like mathematics where created by Arabs, but Grigori Perelman a Russian won the field medal.
And being a main contributor is not subjective at all, it's very well defined. A main contributor is somebody who cam along and changed the way people play the music, introducing a new vocabulary a new approach, and get people to follow him.
Here the thing once you acknowledge that people of african descent have been so far the main contributors of this music, which I think is just a basic fact, you can just move on and focus on individual contribution. Denying it you just get stuck in prejudice.
Now many african americans got very angry when people tried to assimilate the music to african music. So there might be some african sensibility but it is not african music. But at the end of the day I don't think it is so important. Some people want to own this music: European jazz, etc. For the most part it's boring jazz in my opinion. They try to hide their lack of creativity into the fact that people need to adjust to this European sensibility to really get what's going on in their music. But it's just plain sterile and boring. |
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CharlesM
Joined : 07 Jun 2006
Posts : 100
Localisation : Maryland (USA)
| | Subject: Re: Black Genghis Mon 25 Sep ŕ 1:53 | |
| Now in all what I have said above I actually did not answer the question of what is it, that african sensibility .
Why is it that if you transcribe most of traditional african music you come up most of the time with odd metered music? (now that's not to say that you find odd metered/ asymmetric metered music only in African music, there is a lot of that also in eastern european, and indian music)
I'm not an ethnomusicologist but I will venture to say that people of african descent tend to think of time and space in that fashion.
In SC music odd meters are all over the place so the african sensibility is all over the place, but in other musicians you will find it in the way and where they place their accent when soloing. There is a dancing quality to it.
This is just my take on it.
CM. |
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Freewheelin'
Joined : 11 Sep 2006
Posts : 137
| | Subject: Re: Black Genghis Mon 25 Sep ŕ 4:37 | |
| Pat Methaney and John Zorn being the leaders of Jazz.
That's hilarious! Even they themselves are probably rolling in laughter over that one. Crazy!  |
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Freewheelin'
Joined : 11 Sep 2006
Posts : 137
| | Subject: Re: Black Genghis Mon 25 Sep ŕ 4:42 | |
| "Yeah. If you could send me the track where Gene Lake is so impressive."
Nah, if you dislike vocals this much, then you wouldn't want to hear this piece or any others from the Tales of 3 Cities CD....I can promise you that.
Peace |
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CharlesM
Joined : 07 Jun 2006
Posts : 100
Localisation : Maryland (USA)
| | Subject: Re: Black Genghis Tue 26 Sep ŕ 1:55 | |
| C'mon man. As I said before I can stomach the rap thing if the background music is good. Now I'm very curious about this Gene Lake thing. Pleaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase.
Anyhow. Here is the perfect example of an intricate rythm section totally spoiled by Kokayi: Egypt To Crypts In Hieroglyphs.
First I don't understand why they slowed down the whole thing, I would guess to fit in Kokayi tempo. But listen to the words man, way too basic.
Anyway enough said about this topic I hate being negative.
CM. |
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Freewheelin'
Joined : 11 Sep 2006
Posts : 137
| | Subject: Re: Black Genghis Tue 26 Sep ŕ 15:26 | |
| Hey Charles,
The thing is that the song that I'm referring to from the Tale of 3 Cities really is more of a traditional rap thing....it could and probably should be sold in some kind of rap section; not jazz. This music is completely, and I mean completely different from anything else that Steve did.
Anyway, I can't send it to you because you don't have an email addy in your profile. Send me a pm with your email addy and I'll send it off to you no sweat!
"Egypt To Crypts In Hieroglyphs" - I don't have that track in my collection and it isn't available from Steve's site so I wouldn't be able to make any comments on it....but I trust your judgment.
"Anyway enough said about this topic I hate being negative."
Charles, I don't view your comments as negative, rather I view them as your opinion. Some people love spinach while others do not. Music is kind of the same thing, in that music either tastes good to our mental palate or it doesn't. Bob Dylan is that way with me....there is something about him and his music that triggers something in my brain so that I can thoroughly enjoy much of his music, while others can't stand anything about him.
That moment in Black Ghengis, though, is truly a very special moment in music. I don't really know what he's rapping about, I just like his tone, incredible timing and remarkable sense of rhythm.
It surprises me when you said that they had to slow down that one track so that he could keep up. The music that I've heard from him demonstrates his ability to maintain time while Black Indian was always behind and would become confused, thus getting lost and one of the other rappers would have to step in and take over.
No worries....we're just expressing our views. Shoot, I'm a musician and singer, so I realize that criticism is really just a personalized view of what I have done in the past....most of the time I agree with what is being said about me anyway.
Peace |
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Freewheelin'
Joined : 11 Sep 2006
Posts : 137
| | Subject: Re: Black Genghis Sat 6 Jan ŕ 4:24 | |
| | This is probably in my top ten favorite Coleman tunes. Incredible! Well, I suppose you should here it in my theater....its like being there for the actual session. |
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Freewheelin'
Joined : 11 Sep 2006
Posts : 137
| | Subject: Re: Black Genghis Tue 22 May ŕ 0:51 | |
| Listening to this again as of now. Folks, this is an amazing moment in music. If you are a musician and you understand how people "connect", you will see, or hear how this is eactly true with this work of Coleman. Amazingly, Coleman has little to do with this track, other than being the very heart and soul of it!  Coleman is amazing in so many different ways and genres.
Mmmmm. Now listening to "Ain't Goin' Out Like That".
Free |
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